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(p200300d82f015500ba833fd7683662f6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [2003:d8:2f01:5500:ba83:3fd7:6836:62f6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-458705684a8sm32671285e9.26.2025.07.24.15.18.32 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 24 Jul 2025 15:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1bc456a4-30ac-4e6b-8830-e7c86f113f9f@redhat.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 00:18:31 +0200 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCH v3 2/5] mm/mseal: update madvise() logic From: David Hildenbrand To: Jeff Xu , Lorenzo Stoakes Cc: Andrew Morton , "Liam R . Howlett" , Vlastimil Babka , Jann Horn , Pedro Falcato , linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Kees Cook , linux-hardening@vger.kernel.org References: Content-Language: en-US Autocrypt: addr=david@redhat.com; keydata= xsFNBFXLn5EBEAC+zYvAFJxCBY9Tr1xZgcESmxVNI/0ffzE/ZQOiHJl6mGkmA1R7/uUpiCjJ dBrn+lhhOYjjNefFQou6478faXE6o2AhmebqT4KiQoUQFV4R7y1KMEKoSyy8hQaK1umALTdL QZLQMzNE74ap+GDK0wnacPQFpcG1AE9RMq3aeErY5tujekBS32jfC/7AnH7I0v1v1TbbK3Gp XNeiN4QroO+5qaSr0ID2sz5jtBLRb15RMre27E1ImpaIv2Jw8NJgW0k/D1RyKCwaTsgRdwuK Kx/Y91XuSBdz0uOyU/S8kM1+ag0wvsGlpBVxRR/xw/E8M7TEwuCZQArqqTCmkG6HGcXFT0V9 PXFNNgV5jXMQRwU0O/ztJIQqsE5LsUomE//bLwzj9IVsaQpKDqW6TAPjcdBDPLHvriq7kGjt WhVhdl0qEYB8lkBEU7V2Yb+SYhmhpDrti9Fq1EsmhiHSkxJcGREoMK/63r9WLZYI3+4W2rAc UucZa4OT27U5ZISjNg3Ev0rxU5UH2/pT4wJCfxwocmqaRr6UYmrtZmND89X0KigoFD/XSeVv jwBRNjPAubK9/k5NoRrYqztM9W6sJqrH8+UWZ1Idd/DdmogJh0gNC0+N42Za9yBRURfIdKSb B3JfpUqcWwE7vUaYrHG1nw54pLUoPG6sAA7Mehl3nd4pZUALHwARAQABzSREYXZpZCBIaWxk ZW5icmFuZCA8ZGF2aWRAcmVkaGF0LmNvbT7CwZgEEwEIAEICGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQW AgMBAh4BAheAAhkBFiEEG9nKrXNcTDpGDfzKTd4Q9wD/g1oFAmgsLPQFCRvGjuMACgkQTd4Q 9wD/g1o0bxAAqYC7gTyGj5rZwvy1VesF6YoQncH0yI79lvXUYOX+Nngko4v4dTlOQvrd/vhb 02e9FtpA1CxgwdgIPFKIuXvdSyXAp0xXuIuRPQYbgNriQFkaBlHe9mSf8O09J3SCVa/5ezKM OLW/OONSV/Fr2VI1wxAYj3/Rb+U6rpzqIQ3Uh/5Rjmla6pTl7Z9/o1zKlVOX1SxVGSrlXhqt kwdbjdj/csSzoAbUF/duDuhyEl11/xStm/lBMzVuf3ZhV5SSgLAflLBo4l6mR5RolpPv5wad GpYS/hm7HsmEA0PBAPNb5DvZQ7vNaX23FlgylSXyv72UVsObHsu6pT4sfoxvJ5nJxvzGi69U s1uryvlAfS6E+D5ULrV35taTwSpcBAh0/RqRbV0mTc57vvAoXofBDcs3Z30IReFS34QSpjvl Hxbe7itHGuuhEVM1qmq2U72ezOQ7MzADbwCtn+yGeISQqeFn9QMAZVAkXsc9Wp0SW/WQKb76 FkSRalBZcc2vXM0VqhFVzTb6iNqYXqVKyuPKwhBunhTt6XnIfhpRgqveCPNIasSX05VQR6/a OBHZX3seTikp7A1z9iZIsdtJxB88dGkpeMj6qJ5RLzUsPUVPodEcz1B5aTEbYK6428H8MeLq NFPwmknOlDzQNC6RND8Ez7YEhzqvw7263MojcmmPcLelYbfOwU0EVcufkQEQAOfX3n0g0fZz Bgm/S2zF/kxQKCEKP8ID+Vz8sy2GpDvveBq4H2Y34XWsT1zLJdvqPI4af4ZSMxuerWjXbVWb T6d4odQIG0fKx4F8NccDqbgHeZRNajXeeJ3R7gAzvWvQNLz4piHrO/B4tf8svmRBL0ZB5P5A 2uhdwLU3NZuK22zpNn4is87BPWF8HhY0L5fafgDMOqnf4guJVJPYNPhUFzXUbPqOKOkL8ojk CXxkOFHAbjstSK5Ca3fKquY3rdX3DNo+EL7FvAiw1mUtS+5GeYE+RMnDCsVFm/C7kY8c2d0G NWkB9pJM5+mnIoFNxy7YBcldYATVeOHoY4LyaUWNnAvFYWp08dHWfZo9WCiJMuTfgtH9tc75 7QanMVdPt6fDK8UUXIBLQ2TWr/sQKE9xtFuEmoQGlE1l6bGaDnnMLcYu+Asp3kDT0w4zYGsx 5r6XQVRH4+5N6eHZiaeYtFOujp5n+pjBaQK7wUUjDilPQ5QMzIuCL4YjVoylWiBNknvQWBXS lQCWmavOT9sttGQXdPCC5ynI+1ymZC1ORZKANLnRAb0NH/UCzcsstw2TAkFnMEbo9Zu9w7Kv AxBQXWeXhJI9XQssfrf4Gusdqx8nPEpfOqCtbbwJMATbHyqLt7/oz/5deGuwxgb65pWIzufa N7eop7uh+6bezi+rugUI+w6DABEBAAHCwXwEGAEIACYCGwwWIQQb2cqtc1xMOkYN/MpN3hD3 AP+DWgUCaCwtJQUJG8aPFAAKCRBN3hD3AP+DWlDnD/4k2TW+HyOOOePVm23F5HOhNNd7nNv3 Vq2cLcW1DteHUdxMO0X+zqrKDHI5hgnE/E2QH9jyV8mB8l/ndElobciaJcbl1cM43vVzPIWn 01vW62oxUNtEvzLLxGLPTrnMxWdZgxr7ACCWKUnMGE2E8eca0cT2pnIJoQRz242xqe/nYxBB /BAK+dsxHIfcQzl88G83oaO7vb7s/cWMYRKOg+WIgp0MJ8DO2IU5JmUtyJB+V3YzzM4cMic3 bNn8nHjTWw/9+QQ5vg3TXHZ5XMu9mtfw2La3bHJ6AybL0DvEkdGxk6YHqJVEukciLMWDWqQQ RtbBhqcprgUxipNvdn9KwNpGciM+hNtM9kf9gt0fjv79l/FiSw6KbCPX9b636GzgNy0Ev2UV m00EtcpRXXMlEpbP4V947ufWVK2Mz7RFUfU4+ETDd1scMQDHzrXItryHLZWhopPI4Z+ps0rB CQHfSpl+wG4XbJJu1D8/Ww3FsO42TMFrNr2/cmqwuUZ0a0uxrpkNYrsGjkEu7a+9MheyTzcm vyU2knz5/stkTN2LKz5REqOe24oRnypjpAfaoxRYXs+F8wml519InWlwCra49IUSxD1hXPxO WBe5lqcozu9LpNDH/brVSzHCSb7vjNGvvSVESDuoiHK8gNlf0v+epy5WYd7CGAgODPvDShGN g3eXuA== Organization: Red Hat In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 24.07.25 20:56, David Hildenbrand wrote: >> >> To summarize all the discussion points so far: >> 1. It's questionable behavior for madvise to allow destructive >> behavior for read-only anonymous mappings, regardless of mseal state. > > 2. We could potentially fix point 1 within madvise itself, without> > involving mseal, as Linus desires. > > IIUC: disallow madvise(MADV_DONTNEED) without PROT_WRITE. > > I am 99.99999% sure that that would break user case, unfortunately. > >> 3. Android userspace uses destructive madvise to free up RAM, but I >> need to take a closer look at the patterns and usage to understand why >> they do that. > > I am shocked that you question why they would use MADV_DONTNEED instead > of ... > > > 4. We could ask applications to switch to non-destructive madvise,> > like MADV_COLD or MADV_PAGEOUT. Or, another option is that we could >> switch the kernel to use non-destructive madvise implicitly for >> destructive madvise in suitable situations. > > ... MADV_COLD / MADV_PAGEOUT. > > I am also shocked that you think asking apps to switch would not make us > break user space. > >> 5. We could investigate more based on vma->anon_vma > > Or we do what sealing is supposed to do. Sorry for the rather hard replies, I was not understanding at all what you were getting at really. > > With the hope that this sealing fix here would not break user space. Is your concern that something (in Chrome?) would be relying on MADV_DONTNEED working in case we had a MAP_PRIVATE R/O file mapping? Again, disallowing that completely (even without mseal()) would break user space, I am very sure. Whether we should allow zapping *anonymous folios* in MAP_PRIVATE R/O file mapping is a good question, hard to tell if that would break anything. For zapping *anonymous folios* in MAP_PRIVATE R/O anon mappings, I am sure there are use cases around userfaultfd, I'm afraid ... -- Cheers, David / dhildenb