From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:41:31 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:41:21 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:42509 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:41:09 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:42:23 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: CML2 1.1.3 is available Message-ID: <20010416174223.A21689@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org CML2 NEWS The latest version is always available at http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/cml2/ Release 1.1.3: * Freeze color changed from cyan to blue. * Tom Rini's network-configuration patches. * Better detection of set variables to be colored green. * Minor resize and scrolling fixes in menuconfig. * Fixed a rather nasty bug involving side-effect computation that showed up if you set, unset, and reset a symbol in a choices menu. * In non-choice menus, select bar is now advanced after [ymn]. Point release -- bug fixes and UI cleanups. -- Eric S. Raymond The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant -- John Stuart Mill, "On Liberty", 1859 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:52:21 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:52:11 -0400 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([204.243.9.36]:39596 "EHLO mail.reutershealth.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:51:58 -0400 Message-ID: <3ADB69BF.7040305@reutershealth.com> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:53:03 -0400 From: John Cowan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686; en-US; 0.8) Gecko/20010215 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: esr@thyrsus.com CC: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [kbuild-devel] CML2 1.1.3 is available In-Reply-To: <20010416174223.A21689@thyrsus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Eric S. Raymond wrote: > CML2 NEWS > > The latest version is always available at http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/cml2/ > > Release 1.1.3: > * Freeze color changed from cyan to blue. I suggest you stop dinking the colors. There will always be some colors, for some screens, for some eyes, that are illegible, culturally unacceptable, or otherwise bogus. Instead, read the colors from the .Xdefaults system. -- There is / one art || John Cowan no more / no less || http://www.reutershealth.com to do / all things || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan with art- / lessness \\ -- Piet Hein From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:54:52 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:54:42 -0400 Received: from spc2.esa.lanl.gov ([128.165.67.191]:2432 "HELO spc2.esa.lanl.gov") by vger.kernel.org with SMTP id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:54:37 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Steven Cole Reply-To: scole@lanl.gov To: "Eric S. Raymond" , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [kbuild-devel] CML2 1.1.3 is available Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:00:38 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] In-Reply-To: <20010416174223.A21689@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <20010416174223.A21689@thyrsus.com> Cc: elenstev@mesatop.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01041616003800.01249@spc2.esa.lanl.gov> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Monday 16 April 2001 15:42, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > CML2 NEWS > > The latest version is always available at http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/cml2/ > > Release 1.1.3: > * Freeze color changed from cyan to blue. > * Tom Rini's network-configuration patches. > * Better detection of set variables to be colored green. > * Minor resize and scrolling fixes in menuconfig. > * Fixed a rather nasty bug involving side-effect computation > that showed up if you set, unset, and reset a symbol in a > choices menu. > * In non-choice menus, select bar is now advanced after [ymn]. > > Point release -- bug fixes and UI cleanups. Whoops, I just tried out 1.1.3 using make xconfig, and now all the option labels are dark green, not just the ones set to y. Thanks for changing the freeze color to blue. That is much more readable against the silver background for make xconfig. Steven From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:05:32 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:05:23 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:45325 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:05:17 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:06:28 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Steven Cole Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net, elenstev@mesatop.com Subject: Re: [kbuild-devel] CML2 1.1.3 is available Message-ID: <20010416180628.A21941@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Steven Cole , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net, elenstev@mesatop.com In-Reply-To: <20010416174223.A21689@thyrsus.com> <01041616003800.01249@spc2.esa.lanl.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01041616003800.01249@spc2.esa.lanl.gov>; from scole@lanl.gov on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 04:00:38PM -0600 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Steven Cole : > Whoops, I just tried out 1.1.3 using make xconfig, and now all the > option labels are dark green, not just the ones set to y. That's because they're set in your .config, dude! -- Eric S. Raymond See, when the GOVERNMENT spends money, it creates jobs; whereas when the money is left in the hands of TAXPAYERS, God only knows what they do with it. Bake it into pies, probably. Anything to avoid creating jobs. -- Dave Barry From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:20:46 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:20:36 -0400 Received: from spc2.esa.lanl.gov ([128.165.67.191]:5504 "HELO spc2.esa.lanl.gov") by vger.kernel.org with SMTP id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:20:28 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Steven Cole Reply-To: scole@lanl.gov To: "Eric S. Raymond" Subject: Re: [kbuild-devel] CML2 1.1.3 is available Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:26:29 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net, elenstev@mesatop.com In-Reply-To: <20010416174223.A21689@thyrsus.com> <01041616003800.01249@spc2.esa.lanl.gov> <20010416180628.A21941@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <20010416180628.A21941@thyrsus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01041616262902.01249@spc2.esa.lanl.gov> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Monday 16 April 2001 16:06, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Steven Cole : > > Whoops, I just tried out 1.1.3 using make xconfig, and now all the > > option labels are dark green, not just the ones set to y. > > That's because they're set in your .config, dude! Well, lets look at a snippet of the .config: # CONFIG_BINFMT_SOM is not set CONFIG_BINFMT_AOUT=y CONFIG_BINFMT_ELF=y CONFIG_BINFMT_MISC=y # CONFIG_SMP is not set I just re-installed CML2 1.1.2, and it shows those options as you would expect, that is the ones set to y are green, and the "not set" ones are black. Well, except CONFIG_BINFMT_ELF which is black. Toggling it to n and then to y makes it green. Re-installing CML2 1.1.3, I see all those options as green. I can send you my whole .config if that would be useful. Steven From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:28:49 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:28:39 -0400 Received: from pipt.oz.cc.utah.edu ([155.99.2.7]:11478 "EHLO pipt.oz.cc.utah.edu") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:28:34 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:28:18 -0600 (MDT) From: james rich To: esr@thyrsus.com cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [kbuild-devel] CML2 1.1.3 is available In-Reply-To: <3ADB69BF.7040305@reutershealth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, John Cowan wrote: > Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > > Release 1.1.3: > > * Freeze color changed from cyan to blue. > > Instead, read the colors from the .Xdefaults system. Yes, truly this should be done. Sensible defaults should be used (and I think we may be at that point) and then use .Xdefaults (.Xresources or whatever) to allow site overrides. And I really do think .Xdefaults and not .xconfigrc or something. I've already got enough .files and I like the syntax of .Xdefaults. James Rich james.rich@m.cc.utah.edu From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:55:19 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:55:04 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:1550 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:54:51 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:55:56 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: james rich Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [kbuild-devel] CML2 1.1.3 is available Message-ID: <20010416205556.A22960@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , james rich , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <3ADB69BF.7040305@reutershealth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from james.rich@m.cc.utah.edu on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 04:28:18PM -0600 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org james rich : > > Instead, read the colors from the .Xdefaults system. > > Yes, truly this should be done. Sensible defaults should be used (and I > think we may be at that point) and then use .Xdefaults (.Xresources or > whatever) to allow site overrides. And I really do think .Xdefaults and > not .xconfigrc or something. I've already got enough .files and I like > the syntax of .Xdefaults. That way lies featuritis, IMO. If there were already a library in ths stock Python distribution to digest .Xdefaults files I might consider this. Perhaps I'll write one. But I'm not going to bulk up the CML2 code with this marginal feature. -- Eric S. Raymond The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner. -- Report of the Subcommittee On The Constitution of the Committee On The Judiciary, United States Senate, 97th Congress, second session (February, 1982), SuDoc# Y4.J 89/2: Ar 5/5 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:29:02 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:28:41 -0400 Received: from wire.cadcamlab.org ([156.26.20.181]:17170 "EHLO wire.cadcamlab.org") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:28:37 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:28:20 -0500 To: "Eric S. Raymond" Cc: james rich , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: CML2 1.1.3 is available Message-ID: <20010416202820.A22319@cadcamlab.org> In-Reply-To: <3ADB69BF.7040305@reutershealth.com> <20010416205556.A22960@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.15i In-Reply-To: <20010416205556.A22960@thyrsus.com>; from esr@thyrsus.com on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 08:55:56PM -0400 From: Peter Samuelson Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org [esr] > If there were already a library in ths stock Python distribution to > digest .Xdefaults files I might consider this. Perhaps I'll write > one. But I'm not going to bulk up the CML2 code with this marginal > feature. Wait ... I thought you were just using Python bindings to Tk. Are you telling us the Tk library, which for 8 or 10 years has been pretty much *the* X toolkit/widget set for scripting, does not include an interface to X resources? Peter From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:20:08 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:19:58 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:25103 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:19:43 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:20:48 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Peter Samuelson Cc: james rich , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: CML2 1.1.3 is available Message-ID: <20010416232048.B23989@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Peter Samuelson , james rich , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <3ADB69BF.7040305@reutershealth.com> <20010416205556.A22960@thyrsus.com> <20010416202820.A22319@cadcamlab.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010416202820.A22319@cadcamlab.org>; from peter@cadcamlab.org on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 08:28:20PM -0500 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Peter Samuelson : > Wait ... I thought you were just using Python bindings to Tk. Are you > telling us the Tk library, which for 8 or 10 years has been pretty much > *the* X toolkit/widget set for scripting, does not include an interface > to X resources? If it does, it's not in any of the documentation I've ever seen. -- Eric S. Raymond "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it." -- Abraham Lincoln, 4 April 1861 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 03:00:41 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 03:00:31 -0400 Received: from www.inreko.ee ([195.222.18.2]:46837 "EHLO www.inreko.ee") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 03:00:14 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:15:37 +0200 From: Marko Kreen To: "Eric S. Raymond" , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: CML2 1.1.3 is available Message-ID: <20010417091537.A14510@l-t.ee> In-Reply-To: <20010416174223.A21689@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010416174223.A21689@thyrsus.com>; from esr@thyrsus.com on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 05:42:23PM -0400 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 05:42:23PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Release 1.1.3: First I must say that versions 1.1.2, 1.1.3 are much faster than previous, I really cannot say that CML2 is in some way unusable for me. Good work! > * Freeze color changed from cyan to blue. Erm. Yes, in xconfig on _light background_ it is neat, but please but the cyan back for menuconfig, because the blue is invisible on black background. I dont think that anybody has problems with cyan in menuconfig. Welcome to the world of GUI-programming... -- marko From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:11:01 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:10:42 -0400 Received: from chmls20.mediaone.net ([24.147.1.156]:12970 "EHLO chmls20.mediaone.net") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:10:40 -0400 From: andrew@pimlott.ne.mediaone.net (Andrew Pimlott) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:06:41 -0400 To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Peter Samuelson , james rich , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: CML2 1.1.3 is available Message-ID: <20010417040641.A692@pimlott.ne.mediaone.net> Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Peter Samuelson , james rich , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <3ADB69BF.7040305@reutershealth.com> <20010416205556.A22960@thyrsus.com> <20010416202820.A22319@cadcamlab.org> <20010416232048.B23989@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010416232048.B23989@thyrsus.com>; from esr@thyrsus.com on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 11:20:48PM -0400 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 11:20:48PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Peter Samuelson : > > Wait ... I thought you were just using Python bindings to Tk. Are you > > telling us the Tk library, which for 8 or 10 years has been pretty much > > *the* X toolkit/widget set for scripting, does not include an interface > > to X resources? > > If it does, it's not in any of the documentation I've ever seen. In Tcl/Tk, it's the "option" command. Andrew From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:03:30 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:03:20 -0400 Received: from quechua.inka.de ([212.227.14.2]:10561 "EHLO mail.inka.de") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:03:11 -0400 To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: CML2 1.1.3 is available In-Reply-To: <3ADB69BF.7040305@reutershealth.com> <20010416205556.A22960@thyrsus.com> <20010416202820.A22319@cadcamlab.org> <20010416232048.B23989@thyrsus.com> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:25:57 +0200 From: Olaf Titz Message-Id: Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org > > telling us the Tk library, which for 8 or 10 years has been pretty much > > *the* X toolkit/widget set for scripting, does not include an interface > > to X resources? Of course it does; in an idiosyncratic way (not directly using X resources) but it does use the X resource file syntax. > If it does, it's not in any of the documentation I've ever seen. It's in Ousterhout's Tcl/Tk book as well as in the Perl/Tk intro by Walsh. ;-) Tk calls this "option database" or similar. The only catch is that it needs to be explicitly loaded, see "optionReadfile" (at least that's what it's called in perl/tk). Olaf From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:11:59 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:11:49 -0400 Received: from mercury.ccil.org ([192.190.237.100]:19973 "EHLO mercury.ccil.org") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:11:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [kbuild-devel] CML2 1.1.3 is available In-Reply-To: <20010416205556.A22960@thyrsus.com> from "Eric S. Raymond" at "Apr 16, 2001 08:55:56 pm" To: esr@thyrsus.com Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:11:25 -0400 (EDT) CC: james rich , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: John Cowan Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Eric S. Raymond scripsit: > That way lies featuritis, IMO. Only if you let it. > If there were already a library in ths stock Python distribution to digest > .Xdefaults files I might consider this. Perhaps I'll write one. But I'm > not going to bulk up the CML2 code with this marginal feature. Then support a private mechanism if you must. But leaving colors hard-coded in the application is just as bad as leaving strings hard-coded there, and for the same reasons: it's a point that needs to be adjustable for accessibility. The whole point of CML2 is to make kernel configuration something that Aunt Tillie (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) can do, and we are all Aunt Tillies from time to time. That includes differing standards of readability, quite apart from the differences in monitors that make a Mac user's *red* look more like *orange* to me (and CML2 will be used, perhaps even more often used, off stock x86 hardware). Without counting, I estimate that 50% of the problem (I won't say "bug" in this context) reports you have had since 1.0.0 have been about colors. The more users you get, the more such complaints there will be. Nail this one to the wall before people start demanding contradictory changes. If you don't have a full X resources parser, then do a trivial scan of just .Xdefaults and look for a few fixed cases like CMLConfigure*YColor: 0xrrbbgg CMLConfigure*NColor: 0xrrbbgg etc. etc. Or provide a private .rc file. Or *something*. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org One art/there is/no less/no more/All things/to do/with sparks/galore --Douglas Hofstadter From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:15:31 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:15:11 -0400 Received: from [24.70.141.118] ([24.70.141.118]:30449 "EHLO asdf.capslock.lan") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:15:03 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:14:48 -0400 (EDT) From: "Mike A. Harris" X-X-Sender: To: "Eric S. Raymond" cc: james rich , , Subject: Re: [kbuild-devel] CML2 1.1.3 is available In-Reply-To: <20010416205556.A22960@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: X-Unexpected-Header: The Spanish Inquisition X-Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov Copyright: Copyright 2001 by Mike A. Harris - All rights reserved MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:55:56 -0400 >From: Eric S. Raymond >To: james rich >Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Subject: Re: [kbuild-devel] CML2 1.1.3 is available > >james rich : >> > Instead, read the colors from the .Xdefaults system. >> >> Yes, truly this should be done. Sensible defaults should be used (and I >> think we may be at that point) and then use .Xdefaults (.Xresources or >> whatever) to allow site overrides. And I really do think .Xdefaults and >> not .xconfigrc or something. I've already got enough .files and I like >> the syntax of .Xdefaults. > >That way lies featuritis, IMO. Agreed. >If there were already a library in ths stock Python distribution to digest >.Xdefaults files I might consider this. Perhaps I'll write one. But I'm >not going to bulk up the CML2 code with this marginal feature. This presumes one is using X. On a non-X system, .Xdefaults should mean nothing. If anything I think cml2 is no different from anything else. Some sane colors should be chosen to default to, preferably not too far off from CML1menuconfig, and leave it more or less like that. If it _must_ be configureable, put it in a ~/.cmlrc Then do the equiv of: ${CMLRC:=~/.cmlrc} If someone doesn't like the extra dotfile in ~, they can set CMLRC=~/.etc/.cmlrc or somesuch from ~/.bashrc and friends. Anything more would be indeed featureitis IMHO, or abusing a defined file format (Xdefaults). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike A. Harris - Linux advocate - Free Software advocate This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved. Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:38:16 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:38:08 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:16912 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:37:55 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:38:56 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: John Cowan Cc: james rich , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [kbuild-devel] CML2 1.1.3 is available Message-ID: <20010417103856.A27762@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , John Cowan , james rich , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <20010416205556.A22960@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cowan@mercury.ccil.org on Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 07:11:25AM -0400 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org John Cowan : > > If there were already a library in ths stock Python distribution to digest > > .Xdefaults files I might consider this. Perhaps I'll write one. But I'm > > not going to bulk up the CML2 code with this marginal feature. > > Then support a private mechanism if you must. But leaving colors hard-coded > in the application is just as bad as leaving strings hard-coded there, and > for the same reasons: it's a point that needs to be adjustable for > accessibility. The whole point of CML2 is to make kernel configuration something > that Aunt Tillie (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) can do, and we are > all Aunt Tillies from time to time. That includes differing standards of > readability, quite apart from the differences in monitors that make > a Mac user's *red* look more like *orange* to me (and CML2 will be > used, perhaps even more often used, off stock x86 hardware). > > Without counting, I estimate that 50% of the problem (I won't say "bug" > in this context) reports you have had since 1.0.0 have been about colors. > The more users you get, the more such complaints there will be. Nail > this one to the wall before people start demanding contradictory changes. > > If you don't have a full X resources parser, then do a trivial scan of > just .Xdefaults and look for a few fixed cases like > > CMLConfigure*YColor: 0xrrbbgg > CMLConfigure*NColor: 0xrrbbgg > > etc. etc. Or provide a private .rc file. Or *something*. Unfortunately, life is not so simple. X speaks RRBBGG -- or does it? Suppose the user isn't running in 24-bit true-color mode; do I do my own dithering or quantization? The terminal emulators only know about the 16 EGA colors. So, should I support separate resource formats for X and menuconfig cases? But wait! The Linux console does RRBBGG. Other possibility: support only the 16 EGA colors by name. But if I do that, some of the X colors are just *wrong* on standard gray background (cyan is a good example). There's no way to get this right. So I choose to get it wrong in a simple way rather than a complex, costly way. -- Eric S. Raymond "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." -- Barry Goldwater (actually written by Karl Hess) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:23:10 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:22:53 -0400 Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([204.243.9.36]:31919 "EHLO mail.reutershealth.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:22:12 -0400 Message-ID: <3ADC5FD9.9050905@reutershealth.com> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:23:05 -0400 From: John Cowan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686; en-US; 0.8) Gecko/20010215 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: John Cowan , james rich , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: CMLConfigurator skins (was: CML2 1.1.3 is available) In-Reply-To: <20010416205556.A22960@thyrsus.com> <20010417103856.A27762@thyrsus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: unlisted-recipients:; (no To-header on input)@localhost.localdomain Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Other possibility: support only the 16 EGA colors by name. Excellent idea! > But if I do that, > some of the X colors are just *wrong* on standard gray background > (cyan is a good example). So let the user set the background color too. I find gray backgrounds a mortal pain (the "standard" 75% gray of browsers, e.g., is a bad compromise between pictures, which want 50% gray, and text, which wants 100% gray = white). When I write HTML, my only concession to non-Strictness is a "bgcolor='white'" attribute in every start-tag. > There's no way to get this right. There's no way to get it Good and Right for all, without more work than you are willing to put in, following the hacker *mabla*-tradition of basically ignoring UI/HF issues. But it is still possible to make it Bad and Right, using such a hack as described above. What you have now is Good and Right for some and Bad and Wrong for others, and the number of "others" can only grow --- no matter how much you dink the colors in Brownian motion, responding to random electromagnetic forces from randoms. > So I choose to get it wrong in a simple > way rather than a complex, costly way. Don't say you weren't warned, nag, nag, nag, ... My strategy here is to make sufficient fuss that you are motivated to get off your duff to shut me up. :-) Better me than some irate newbie who decides that configuring kernels "can make you blind, man". And whilst you are implementing this, make sure a range of font sizes is allowed in the X version. My middle-aged eyes are more and more happy with the "huge" setting in the xterm control-rightbutton menu, especially on SuperVGA screen sizes. -- There is / one art || John Cowan no more / no less || http://www.reutershealth.com to do / all things || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan with art- / lessness \\ -- Piet Hein From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:15:13 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:15:03 -0400 Received: from wire.cadcamlab.org ([156.26.20.181]:15879 "EHLO wire.cadcamlab.org") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:14:48 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:14:26 -0500 To: John Cowan Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, james rich , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: CML2 1.1.3 is available Message-ID: <20010417111426.A24230@cadcamlab.org> In-Reply-To: <20010416205556.A22960@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.15i In-Reply-To: ; from cowan@mercury.ccil.org on Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 07:11:25AM -0400 From: Peter Samuelson Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org [John Cowan] > The whole point of CML2 is to make kernel configuration something > that Aunt Tillie (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) can do, and we > are all Aunt Tillies from time to time. That includes differing > standards of readability, Come on, that's absolutely a red herring. There are valid reasons to want to configure your color schemes, but Aunt Tillie is not one of them. Do you seriously believe the novice user will ever futz with a ~/.kernelconfigrc file? I don't. Only the (relatively) advanced user will bother to figure out stuff like that. If you want your aunt to be able to set her own colors, you basically have to provide an 'Edit / Preferences...' drop-down or equivalent, and I think we all know we don't want to go *there*.... > Without counting, I estimate that 50% of the problem (I won't say > "bug" in this context) reports you have had since 1.0.0 have been > about colors. Which basically means Eric and the others have long since shaken out the serious bugs. -- Except for the famous 20-second parse, which of course accounts for the *other* 50% of recent CML2 traffic. Peter From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:15:07 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:14:56 -0400 Received: from [212.159.14.227] ([212.159.14.227]:8920 "HELO warrior-outbound.servers.plus.net") by vger.kernel.org with SMTP id ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:14:46 -0400 To: esr@thyrsus.com Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: [kbuild-devel] CML2 1.1.3 is available In-Reply-To: <3ADB69BF.7040305@reutershealth.com> <20010416205556.A22960@thyrsus.com> From: Adam Sampson Organization: The Campaign For The Writing Of "a lot" As Two Words Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: 20 Apr 2001 00:20:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20010416205556.A22960@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: <87itk04gus.fsf@cartman.azz.us-lot.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Solid Vapor) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org "Eric S. Raymond" writes: > If there were already a library in ths stock Python distribution to > digest .Xdefaults files I might consider this. Perhaps I'll write > one. No, please don't! .Xdefaults files as loaded by xrdb can contain cpp directives which can depend on the arguments given to xrdb ("xrdb -DBIGTERM .Xdefaults", for instance), so you can't assume that what you read from .Xdefaults is the user's setup, even if you emulate cpp. You also shouldn't assume that the user's HOME is on the machine where they loaded their resources from (suppose I start an X session on my workstation, then ssh over to a server and run CML2; it would then read server:~/.Xdefaults rather than workstation:~/.Xdefaults). It's much more sensible to use the normal X mechanisms for reading resources from the X server. CML2 looks good---keep up the good work. -- Adam Sampson From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:03:53 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:03:43 -0400 Received: from saturn.cs.uml.edu ([129.63.8.2]:22034 "EHLO saturn.cs.uml.edu") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:03:30 -0400 From: "Albert D. Cahalan" Message-Id: <200104220003.f3M03R4194742@saturn.cs.uml.edu> Subject: Re: [kbuild-devel] CML2 1.1.3 is available To: azz@gnu.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org In-Reply-To: <87itk04gus.fsf@cartman.azz.us-lot.org> from "Adam Sampson" at Apr 20, 2001 12:20:11 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Adam Sampson writes: > "Eric S. Raymond" writes: >> If there were already a library in ths stock Python distribution to >> digest .Xdefaults files I might consider this. Perhaps I'll write >> one. > > No, please don't! .Xdefaults files as loaded by xrdb can contain cpp > directives which can depend on the arguments given to xrdb ("xrdb > -DBIGTERM .Xdefaults", for instance), so you can't assume that what > you read from .Xdefaults is the user's setup, even if you emulate > cpp. You also shouldn't assume that the user's HOME is on the machine > where they loaded their resources from (suppose I start an X session > on my workstation, then ssh over to a server and run CML2; it would > then read server:~/.Xdefaults rather than workstation:~/.Xdefaults). > It's much more sensible to use the normal X mechanisms for reading > resources from the X server. The above absurdity is exactly why newer toolkits don't bother to support this config mechanism. There isn't any way to have the app support an "Edit --> Preferences --> Save" with this. If the Python/Tk stuff (or whatever it is Eric is using) doesn't yet have a modern dotfile for this sort of thing, then we've just stumbled across a nice project.