From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:16:46 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:16:37 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:1029 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:16:26 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:17:57 -0400 Message-Id: <200104140317.f3E3Hv805992@snark.thyrsus.com> From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: CML 1.1.0, aka "I feel the need...the need for speed." Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org The latest version is always available at http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/cml2/ Release 1.1.0: Fri Apr 13 23:10:56 EDT 2001 * Better-controlled recursivity in the theorem prover; reading in defconfigs is much faster now. * Revised config/xconfig/menuconfig/oldconfigs productions, these should be a better match for the expected behavior now. * Ternary-select (a ? b : c) added to the language. Configurator startup is now so much faster it's almost ridiculous. Wheee! I added ternary-select to handle some weird cases in the CRIS port tree for 2.4.4-pre1. -- Eric S. Raymond Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.... Do not be frightened from this inquiry from any fear of its consequences. If it ends in the belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise... -- Thomas Jefferson, in a 1787 letter to his nephew From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 08:49:00 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 08:48:50 -0400 Received: from www.inreko.ee ([195.222.18.2]:52971 "EHLO www.inreko.ee") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 08:48:39 -0400 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:04:21 +0200 From: Marko Kreen To: "Eric S. Raymond" Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: comments on CML 1.1.0 Message-ID: <20010414150421.A28066@l-t.ee> In-Reply-To: <200104140317.f3E3Hv805992@snark.thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200104140317.f3E3Hv805992@snark.thyrsus.com>; from esr@snark.thyrsus.com on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 11:17:57PM -0400 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Using CML2 1.1.0 'menuconfig' on clean 2.4.3 (mach is PPro 180) Suggestions: * the 'N' should be shown as ' ' as in menuconfig - it is visually much better to get overview of whole screenful. 'Y'/'M' and 'N' are basically of 'same size' so you must look directly on letter to understand what it is - not good. * the menuconfig had nice shortcut: when you pressed 'm' on [YN] field, it put 'y' there without questions. So you could use only 2 keys to configure one screen: 'n/m'. this meant you did not need to move fingers around and think about it so much - big thing when you are not touch-typer... * the colors are hard to see (red/blue on black). Probably matter of terminal settings. I do not have any productive ideas tho... Probably to get best experience to as much people as possible the less colors are used the better. The 'blue: last visited submenu' is unnecessary. Especially because it later turns green... And the 'red' vs. 'green' thing. I guess the green should be used for 'visited entries' too. Now the red means like 'Doh. So I should not have touched this?'. Confusing. In other words: if there are too much colors, they become a thing that should be separately learned, not a helpful aid. All this IMHO ofcourse. Colors are 'matter of taste' thing so there probably is not exact Rigth Thing. Bugs/complaints: * aic7xxx is not updated (defaults: are 8/5 should be 253/5000) (this from arch/i386/defconfig maybe?) * 'IDE chipset support' nesting is very confusing - compare to menuconfig. I would say even 'wrong'... (eg. 'PIIXn tuning' is is under 'PIIXn support' which is not under 'ATA works in progress'. * screen is redrawn after _every_ keystroke - not only in moving around, but even when you are on input field... * input field: when there is some default and I start typing it should either clear it or append. -- marko From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:59:33 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:59:24 -0400 Received: from mercury.mv.net ([199.125.85.40]:21772 "EHLO mercury.mv.net") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:59:18 -0400 Message-ID: <002601c0c4fb$c7e54260$0201a8c0@home> From: "jeff millar" To: "Eric S. Raymond" Cc: In-Reply-To: <200104140317.f3E3Hv805992@snark.thyrsus.com> <20010414150421.A28066@l-t.ee> Subject: Re: comments on CML 1.1.0 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:58:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Selecting IP_NF_COMPAT_IPCHAINS turns off IP_NF_CONNTRACK and friends. But, I think CML1, allowed both support to the new iptables and compatibility modes to allow old ipchains scripts to work with the new kernel. jeff From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:38:46 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:38:36 -0400 Received: from libra.cus.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.19]:7865 "EHLO libra.cus.cam.ac.uk") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:38:26 -0400 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:38:25 +0100 (BST) From: Anton Altaparmakov To: "Eric S. Raymond" cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: CML2 1.1.0 bug and snailspeed In-Reply-To: <002601c0c4fb$c7e54260$0201a8c0@home> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Ok, I tried the CML2 1.1.0. (Had to spend hours installing Python 2.0 until I found all required configure options and got the right modules compiled in, but ok, that's a one off and is not CML2's fault, also ran make test to make sure it works.) Installed cml, cwd to kernel, and ran make menuconfig. Waited about 2-5 minutes (didn't time it) to get the menu. Slower than CML1 by a bit. [Note: My development machine is a Pentium Classic 133S with 64MiB ECC RAM and ATA-100 7200RPM HD on Promise ATA-100 controller with several network cards, runs like a charm with 2.4 kernel for what it is used for: file serving/ftp serving/smb serving/nat] In the menu the colour scheme is a bit strange but everyone has a different taste. Would need some getting used to, but ok. It does seem like a step back in time though, compared to the old menuconfig which had nice windows feel and colours, IMHO. I am not sure why it had to be changed. Surely you can have the old interface with the new theorem prover? I found a bug: In "Intel and compatible 80x86 processor options", "Intel and compatible 80x86 processor types" I press "y" on "Pentium Classic" option and it activates Penitum-III as well as Pentium Classic options at the same time!?! Tried to play around switching to something else and then onto Pentium Classic again and it enabled Pentium Classic and Pentium Pro/Celeron/Pentium II (NEW) this time! Something is very wrong here. Now a general comment: CML2 is extremely slow to the point of not being usable! )-: It would take me hours to configure a kernel with this. Just pressing "n"/"y" or "m" somewhere takes easily several seconds to complete... Pressing any of the arrow keys takes between 1 (up/down) and 10 (left/right) seconds to complete. *Argh!* When a window is up, saying press any key to continue there are delays of several seconds of nothing happening at all before the window disappers. With this slow response time, I wonder whether I actually pressed the key so press it again, key gets queued, so it gets executed when the first key press has finished executing wreaking havoc. )-: It might be all cool and good having a theorem prover and what not inside the configuration but if this is going to replace CML1 completely, IMHO, you will _have_ to provide some speedy way of configuration (and no, using "vi .config" or equivalent is not an option I would like to use...). Many people have been commenting that speed doesn't matter "just use a newer computer" but that argument is just stupid IMNSHO. That's what MS says when they release a new OS/program... I don't need a new computer, this one works absolutely fine and maxes out all it's 10Mbit network connections quite happily, so why should I buy something faster?!? Just to configure a kernel? Surely not. Linux has always been the OS of choice for people with a small budget and the way it is going it is running the danger of loosing this corner of this rather big market. I will be back to CML1 now so I can configure and kick off the compile of this kernel before dinner... Best regards, Anton -- Anton Altaparmakov (replace at with @) Linux NTFS maintainer / WWW: http://sourceforge.net/projects/linux-ntfs/ ICQ: 8561279 / WWW: http://www-stu.christs.cam.ac.uk/~aia21/ From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:55:20 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:55:10 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:20230 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:54:55 -0400 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:56:18 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Anton Altaparmakov Cc: "Eric S. Raymond" , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: CML2 1.1.0 bug and snailspeed Message-ID: <20010414135618.C10538@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Anton Altaparmakov , "Eric S. Raymond" , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org In-Reply-To: <002601c0c4fb$c7e54260$0201a8c0@home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from aia21@cus.cam.ac.uk on Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:38:25PM +0100 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Anton Altaparmakov : > In the menu the colour scheme is a bit strange but everyone has a > different taste. Would need some getting used to, but ok. It does seem > like a step back in time though, compared to the old menuconfig which had > nice windows feel and colours, IMHO. I am not sure why it had to be > changed. Surely you can have the old interface with the new theorem > prover? I couldn't do both that and share back-end code with the other interfaces. > I found a bug: In "Intel and compatible 80x86 processor options", "Intel > and compatible 80x86 processor types" I press "y" on "Pentium Classic" > option and it activates Penitum-III as well as Pentium Classic options at > the same time!?! Tried to play around switching to something else and then > onto Pentium Classic again and it enabled Pentium Classic and Pentium > Pro/Celeron/Pentium II (NEW) this time! Something is very wrong here. Rules file bug, probably. I'll investigate this afternoon. > Now a general comment: CML2 is extremely slow to the point of not being > usable! )-: I'm still tuning. -- Eric S. Raymond Love your country, but never trust its government. -- Robert A. Heinlein. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:50:55 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:50:45 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:38918 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:50:28 -0400 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:51:53 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: jeff millar Cc: "Eric S. Raymond" , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: comments on CML 1.1.0 Message-ID: <20010414155153.A12421@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , jeff millar , "Eric S. Raymond" , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org In-Reply-To: <200104140317.f3E3Hv805992@snark.thyrsus.com> <20010414150421.A28066@l-t.ee> <002601c0c4fb$c7e54260$0201a8c0@home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <002601c0c4fb$c7e54260$0201a8c0@home>; from jeff@wa1hco.mv.com on Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 11:58:41AM -0400 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org jeff millar : > Selecting IP_NF_COMPAT_IPCHAINS turns off IP_NF_CONNTRACK and friends. But, > I think CML1, allowed both support to the new iptables and compatibility > modes to allow old ipchains scripts to work with the new kernel. Would somebody who knows what these dependencies are please send me a rule patch? -- Eric S. Raymond ...Virtually never are murderers the ordinary, law-abiding people against whom gun bans are aimed. Almost without exception, murderers are extreme aberrants with lifelong histories of crime, substance abuse, psychopathology, mental retardation and/or irrational violence against those around them, as well as other hazardous behavior, e.g., automobile and gun accidents." -- Don B. Kates, writing on statistical patterns in gun crime From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:48:16 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:48:06 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:45062 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:47:59 -0400 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:49:14 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Marko Kreen Cc: "Eric S. Raymond" , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: comments on CML 1.1.0 Message-ID: <20010414164914.A12838@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Marko Kreen , "Eric S. Raymond" , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org In-Reply-To: <200104140317.f3E3Hv805992@snark.thyrsus.com> <20010414150421.A28066@l-t.ee> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010414150421.A28066@l-t.ee>; from marko@l-t.ee on Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:04:21PM +0200 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Marko Kreen : > Using CML2 1.1.0 'menuconfig' on clean 2.4.3 (mach is PPro 180) > > Suggestions: > > * the 'N' should be shown as ' ' as in menuconfig - it is > visually much better to get overview of whole screenful. > 'Y'/'M' and 'N' are basically of 'same size' so you must look > directly on letter to understand what it is - not good. I've gone this one better. It's now "Y", "m", " ", so the m and y responses are easily distinguished. > * the menuconfig had nice shortcut: when you pressed 'm' on > [YN] field, it put 'y' there without questions. So you could > use only 2 keys to configure one screen: 'n/m'. this meant > you did not need to move fingers around and think about it > so much - big thing when you are not touch-typer... Implemented. > * the colors are hard to see (red/blue on black). Probably > matter of terminal settings. I do not have any productive > ideas tho... Probably to get best experience to as much > people as possible the less colors are used the better. > > The 'blue: last visited submenu' is unnecessary. Especially > because it later turns green... And the 'red' vs. 'green' > thing. I guess the green should be used for 'visited entries' > too. Now the red means like 'Doh. So I should not have > touched this?'. Confusing. > > In other words: if there are too much colors, they become > a thing that should be separately learned, not a helpful > aid. > > All this IMHO ofcourse. Colors are 'matter of taste' thing > so there probably is not exact Rigth Thing. You make good points. In the 1.1.1, blue and yellow/brown will be gone; it's just green for everything visited. > Bugs/complaints: > > * aic7xxx is not updated (defaults: are 8/5 should be 253/5000) > (this from arch/i386/defconfig maybe?) Fixed. > * 'IDE chipset support' nesting is very confusing - compare > to menuconfig. I would say even 'wrong'... > (eg. 'PIIXn tuning' is is under 'PIIXn support' which is not > under 'ATA works in progress'. Rules-file patches will be cheerfully accepted. > * screen is redrawn after _every_ keystroke - not only in moving > around, but even when you are on input field... I know. The workaround is to use gnome-term, which for some reason doesn't show this. It's tops on my longer-term to-do list. > * input field: when there is some default and I start typing it > should either clear it or append. On my to-do list. -- Eric S. Raymond The men and women who founded our country knew, by experience, that there are times when the free person's answer to oppressive government has to be delivered with a bullet. Thus, the right to bear arms is not just *a* freedom; it's the mother of all freedoms. Don't let them disarm you! From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 06:47:18 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 06:47:07 -0400 Received: from draco.cus.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.18]:11995 "EHLO draco.cus.cam.ac.uk") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 06:46:59 -0400 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010415114319.00b13350@pop.cus.cam.ac.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:48:46 +0100 To: esr@thyrsus.com From: Anton Altaparmakov Subject: Re: CML2 1.1.0 bug and snailspeed Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org In-Reply-To: <20010414135618.C10538@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <002601c0c4fb$c7e54260$0201a8c0@home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org At 18:56 14/04/2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >Anton Altaparmakov : > > I found a bug: In "Intel and compatible 80x86 processor options", "Intel > > and compatible 80x86 processor types" I press "y" on "Pentium Classic" > > option and it activates Penitum-III as well as Pentium Classic options at > > the same time!?! Tried to play around switching to something else and then > > onto Pentium Classic again and it enabled Pentium Classic and Pentium > > Pro/Celeron/Pentium II (NEW) this time! Something is very wrong here. > >Rules file bug, probably. I'll investigate this afternoon. Just to say that this bug still exists in CML2 1.1.1 but it is sometimes hidden, i.e. you only see a "Y" on one of the options but when you select another option, it sometimes says that TWO other options were set to "n" implying that two options were Y before... I also still see random two options being Y when playing with Pentium Classic selection (right now I see Pentium Classic and Pentium-4 at the same time being Y on my screen)... Hope this helps, Anton -- Anton Altaparmakov (replace at with @) Linux NTFS Maintainer / WWW: http://sourceforge.net/projects/linux-ntfs/ ICQ: 8561279 / WWW: http://www-stu.christs.cam.ac.uk/~aia21/ From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 09:20:22 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 09:20:13 -0400 Received: from [203.36.158.121] ([203.36.158.121]:58759 "EHLO piro.kabuki.openfridge.net") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 09:20:09 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:20:01 +1000 From: Daniel Stone To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: comments on CML 1.1.0 Message-ID: <20010415232001.A9242@piro.kabuki.openfridge.net> Mail-Followup-To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org In-Reply-To: <200104140317.f3E3Hv805992@snark.thyrsus.com> <20010414150421.A28066@l-t.ee> <002601c0c4fb$c7e54260$0201a8c0@home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.17i In-Reply-To: <002601c0c4fb$c7e54260$0201a8c0@home>; from jeff@wa1hco.mv.com on Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 11:58:41AM -0400 Organisation: Sadly lacking Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 11:58:41AM -0400, jeff millar wrote: > Selecting IP_NF_COMPAT_IPCHAINS turns off IP_NF_CONNTRACK and friends. But, > I think CML1, allowed both support to the new iptables and compatibility > modes to allow old ipchains scripts to work with the new kernel. Only as modules: conntrack/queueing/iptables, ipchains compat, and ipfwadm compat, are all mutually exclusive. The only way that this was at all possible in 2.4.x was via modules, but even then, they were still mutually exclusive. -- Daniel Stone Linux Kernel Developer daniel@kabuki.openfridge.net -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 G!>CS d s++:- a---- C++ ULS++++$>B P---- L+++>++++ E+(joe)>+++ W++ N->++ !o K? w++(--) O---- M- V-- PS+++ PE- Y PGP>++ t--- 5-- X- R- tv-(!) b+++ DI+++ D+ G e->++ h!(+) r+(%) y? UF++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 13:58:11 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 13:58:01 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:65033 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 13:57:47 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 13:59:06 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Anton Altaparmakov Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: CML2 1.1.0 bug and snailspeed Message-ID: <20010415135906.A5501@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Anton Altaparmakov , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org In-Reply-To: <002601c0c4fb$c7e54260$0201a8c0@home> <20010414135618.C10538@thyrsus.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010415114319.00b13350@pop.cus.cam.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010415114319.00b13350@pop.cus.cam.ac.uk>; from aia21@cam.ac.uk on Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 11:48:46AM +0100 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Anton Altaparmakov : > At 18:56 14/04/2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > >Anton Altaparmakov : > > > I found a bug: In "Intel and compatible 80x86 processor options", "Intel > > > and compatible 80x86 processor types" I press "y" on "Pentium Classic" > > > option and it activates Penitum-III as well as Pentium Classic options at > > > the same time!?! Tried to play around switching to something else and then > > > onto Pentium Classic again and it enabled Pentium Classic and Pentium > > > Pro/Celeron/Pentium II (NEW) this time! Something is very wrong here. > > > >Rules file bug, probably. I'll investigate this afternoon. > > Just to say that this bug still exists in CML2 1.1.1 but it is sometimes > hidden, i.e. you only see a "Y" on one of the options but when you select > another option, it sometimes says that TWO other options were set to "n" > implying that two options were Y before... I also still see random two > options being Y when playing with Pentium Classic selection (right now I > see Pentium Classic and Pentium-4 at the same time being Y on my screen)... I can't reproduce this in 1.1.2. Here's a ttyconfig run, after "v 2" to set the verbose flag. Skip-to-query arrived at x86type Intel and compatible 80x86 processor types may have these values: 1: M386 386 2: M486 486 3: M586 586/K5/5x86/6x86/6x86MX 4: M586TSC Pentium Classic 5: M586MMX Pentium MMX 6: M686 Pentium Pro/Celeron/Pentium II 7: MPENTIUMIII Pentium-III 8: MPENTIUM4 Pentium-4 9: MK6 K6/K6-II/K6-III 10: MK7 Athlon/Duron/K7 11: MCRUSOE Crusoe 12: MWINCHIPC6 Winchip-C6 13: MWINCHIP2 Winchip-2 14: MWINCHIP3D Winchip-2A/Winchip-3 15: MCYRIXIII CyrixIII/C3 x86type: Intel and compatible 80x86 processor types (M686): 4 User action on M586TSC. set_symbol_internal(M586TSC, y, None) bindsymbol(M586TSC, y, M586TSC) M586TSC=y set_symbol_internal(M386, n, M586TSC) Symbol M386 unchanged set_symbol_internal(M486, n, M586TSC) Symbol M486 unchanged set_symbol_internal(M586, n, M586TSC) Symbol M586 unchanged set_symbol_internal(M586MMX, n, M586TSC) Symbol M586MMX unchanged set_symbol_internal(M686, n, M586TSC) bindsymbol(M686, n, M586TSC) M686=n (deduced from M586TSC) set_symbol_internal(MPENTIUMIII, n, M586TSC) Symbol MPENTIUMIII unchanged set_symbol_internal(MPENTIUM4, n, M586TSC) Symbol MPENTIUM4 unchanged set_symbol_internal(MK6, n, M586TSC) Symbol MK6 unchanged set_symbol_internal(MK7, n, M586TSC) Symbol MK7 unchanged set_symbol_internal(MCRUSOE, n, M586TSC) Symbol MCRUSOE unchanged set_symbol_internal(MWINCHIPC6, n, M586TSC) Symbol MWINCHIPC6 unchanged set_symbol_internal(MWINCHIP2, n, M586TSC) Symbol MWINCHIP2 unchanged set_symbol_internal(MWINCHIP3D, n, M586TSC) Symbol MWINCHIP3D unchanged set_symbol_internal(MCYRIXIII, n, M586TSC) Symbol MCYRIXIII unchanged Unchilling... M686=n (deduced from M586TSC) Committing new bindings. Trit flag is now y Skip-to-query called from x86type is_visible(MICROCODE) called MICROCODE not visible, MICROCODE guard M686 is false is_visible(TOSHIBA) called Query of TOSHIBA *not* elided Skip-to-query arrived at TOSHIBA TOSHIBA: Toshiba Laptop support < > (NEW)?: I'm going to ship 1.1.2 in a few hours. Would you see if you can reproduce it in your environment? Perhaps it's some effect of reading in your existing config.out. -- Eric S. Raymond ...the Federal Judiciary...an irresponsible body, working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless step like a thief over the field of jurisdiction until all shall be usurped from the States; and the government of all be consolidated into one. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:54:32 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:54:23 -0400 Received: from draco.cus.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.18]:64745 "EHLO draco.cus.cam.ac.uk") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:54:06 -0400 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010416005432.00ac81a0@pop.cus.cam.ac.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 00:55:49 +0100 To: esr@thyrsus.com From: Anton Altaparmakov Subject: Re: CML2 1.1.0 bug and snailspeed Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org In-Reply-To: <20010415135906.A5501@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010415114319.00b13350@pop.cus.cam.ac.uk> <002601c0c4fb$c7e54260$0201a8c0@home> <20010414135618.C10538@thyrsus.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010415114319.00b13350@pop.cus.cam.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org At 18:59 15/04/2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >Anton Altaparmakov : > > At 18:56 14/04/2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > >Anton Altaparmakov : > > > > I found a bug: In "Intel and compatible 80x86 processor options", > "Intel > > > > and compatible 80x86 processor types" I press "y" on "Pentium Classic" > > > > option and it activates Penitum-III as well as Pentium Classic > options at > > > > the same time!?! Tried to play around switching to something else > and then > > > > onto Pentium Classic again and it enabled Pentium Classic and Pentium > > > > Pro/Celeron/Pentium II (NEW) this time! Something is very wrong here. > > > > > >Rules file bug, probably. I'll investigate this afternoon. > > > > Just to say that this bug still exists in CML2 1.1.1 but it is sometimes > > hidden, i.e. you only see a "Y" on one of the options but when you select > > another option, it sometimes says that TWO other options were set to "n" > > implying that two options were Y before... I also still see random two > > options being Y when playing with Pentium Classic selection (right now I > > see Pentium Classic and Pentium-4 at the same time being Y on my screen)... > >I can't reproduce this in 1.1.2. Here's a ttyconfig run, after "v 2" to set >the verbose flag. I can't reproduce it with ttyconfig either. But here is how to reproduce it reliably with menuconfig: make mrproper rm .config rm config.out make menuconfig down down right right [Now in cpu selection have a Y next to M686.] down to M586TSC y msg: M686=n (deduced from M586TSC) enter to dismis msg up [now at M586] y msg: M586TSC=n (deduced from M586) enter to dismis msg down [now back at M586TSC] y msg: M586=n (deduced from M586TSC) enter to dismis msg [now have a Y for both M586TSC and M686] y [nothing happens, as it is already 'y' it's expected] down [now notice colouring: M586TSC is green while M686 is grey like the rest] down [now at M686 which has the second y but is grey] y [nothing happens, as it is 'y' it's expected, but it shouldn't be 'y'] down [now at MPENTIUMIII] y msg: M586TSC=n (deduced from MPENTIUMIII) M686=n (deduced from MPENTIUMIII) enter to dismis msg [only one Y left at expected position MPENTIUMIII] I cannot reproduce any of this using make ttyconfig I am afraid... The above in/output was with CML2 1.1.2. There must be something... Can you reproduce this? I gave you all keypresses I used. I can reproduce it every time. If I press 'x' after the two 'Y' have appeared at the same time and look at the generated .config it says: # Intel and compatible 80x86 processor types # # CONFIG_M386 is not set # CONFIG_M486 is not set # CONFIG_M586 is not set CONFIG_M586TSC=y # CONFIG_M586MMX is not set CONFIG_M686=y # CONFIG_MPENTIUMIII is not set # CONFIG_MPENTIUM4 is not set # CONFIG_MK6 is not set # CONFIG_MK7 is not set # CONFIG_MCRUSOE is not set # CONFIG_MWINCHIPC6 is not set # CONFIG_MWINCHIP2 is not set # CONFIG_MWINCHIP3D is not set # CONFIG_MCYRIXIII is not set And config.out contains: # Intel and compatible 80x86 processor types # CONFIG_M386=n CONFIG_M486=n CONFIG_M586=n CONFIG_M586TSC=y CONFIG_M586MMX=n CONFIG_M686=y CONFIG_MPENTIUMIII=n CONFIG_MPENTIUM4=n CONFIG_MK6=n CONFIG_MK7=n CONFIG_MCRUSOE=n CONFIG_MWINCHIPC6=n CONFIG_MWINCHIP2=n CONFIG_MWINCHIP3D=n CONFIG_MCYRIXIII=n This shows quite cleary that the state really is messed up indeed. Let me know if you cannot reproduce this stil... If there is anything I can help to narrow this down let me know (I don't know any Python I am afraid). Once I have my permanent netconnection back to home (will take a few days) I can give you a ssh shell account on this system if it would be helpful. At the moment the only interaction with the world is using a floppy disk or my Windows box and the modem in my Nokia 7110... )-: Best regards, Anton -- Anton Altaparmakov (replace at with @) Linux NTFS Maintainer / WWW: http://sourceforge.net/projects/linux-ntfs/ ICQ: 8561279 / WWW: http://www-stu.christs.cam.ac.uk/~aia21/ From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:01:09 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:00:59 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:56076 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:00:48 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:02:00 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Anton Altaparmakov Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: CML2 1.1.0 bug and snailspeed Message-ID: <20010416130200.A18768@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Anton Altaparmakov , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010415114319.00b13350@pop.cus.cam.ac.uk> <002601c0c4fb$c7e54260$0201a8c0@home> <20010414135618.C10538@thyrsus.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010415114319.00b13350@pop.cus.cam.ac.uk> <20010415135906.A5501@thyrsus.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010416005432.00ac81a0@pop.cus.cam.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010416005432.00ac81a0@pop.cus.cam.ac.uk>; from aia21@cam.ac.uk on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:55:49AM +0100 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Anton Altaparmakov : > I can't reproduce it with ttyconfig either. But here is how to reproduce it > reliably with menuconfig: Excellent! I was able to reproduce it and track it down. This will be fixed in tonight's release. -- Eric S. Raymond He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression: for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach unto himself. -- Thomas Paine From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:40:55 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:40:45 -0400 Received: from coruscant.franken.de ([193.174.159.226]:60679 "EHLO coruscant.gnumonks.org") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:40:36 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:31:59 -0300 From: Harald Welte To: "Eric S. Raymond" , jeff millar , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: comments on CML 1.1.0 Message-ID: <20010416223159.M16697@corellia.laforge.distro.conectiva> In-Reply-To: <200104140317.f3E3Hv805992@snark.thyrsus.com> <20010414150421.A28066@l-t.ee> <002601c0c4fb$c7e54260$0201a8c0@home> <20010414155153.A12421@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.14i In-Reply-To: <20010414155153.A12421@thyrsus.com>; from esr@thyrsus.com on Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:51:53PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux corellia.laforge.distro.conectiva 2.4.3 X-Date: Today is Sweetmorn, the 33rd day of Discord in the YOLD 3167 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:51:53PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > jeff millar : > > Selecting IP_NF_COMPAT_IPCHAINS turns off IP_NF_CONNTRACK and friends. But, > > I think CML1, allowed both support to the new iptables and compatibility > > modes to allow old ipchains scripts to work with the new kernel. > > Would somebody who knows what these dependencies are please send me a rule > patch? Ok, as I am one of the netfilter people, and I've already cleaned up this issue after Linus' switch to the 'new-style' Makefiles somewhen in 2.4.0-textXX I might be suitable for this job. Unfortunately I don't know too much about CML2, so I cannot provide you with a straightforward ruleset, only with a description: Basically there are the following dependencies: 1. you compile connection tracking as module a) iptables compiled as module - you can compile ANY or BOTH of ipchains, ipfwadm as module ONLY (not static) b) iptables compiled static - NO possibility of compiling ipchains or ipfwadm at all, either as module or static c) iptables NOT compiled at all - you can compile ONE OF ipchains, ipfwadm statically - you can compile BOTH of them as modules 2. you compile connection tracking statically into the kernel - NO possibility of compiling ipchains or ipfwadm at all, either module or static - iptables can be compiled modular or static there's another interesting dependency, I'll describe the problem first: Netfilter has modules called connection tracking and nat helpers. For most protocols, they will appear in pairs (as opposed to only one module called ip_masq_XXX in 2.2.x). They are performing independent functionality, and you will never need the NAT helper on a non-nat box. 1. connection tracking (CONFIG_IP_NF_CONNTRACK) is on (M or Y) Full NAT (CONFIG_IP_NF_NAT) off - if CONFIG_IP_NF_FTP is OFF, none of ip_conntrack_ftp.c/ip_nat_ftp.c are compiled - if CONFIG_IP_NF_FTP is ON (M or Y), ip_conntrcak_ftp.c is compiled (as module or statically, as apropriate) 2. connection tracking is on (M or Y), Full NAT is on (M or Y) - if CONFIG_IP_NF_FTP is OFF, none of ip_conntrack_ftp.c/ip_nat_ftp.c are compiled - if CONFIG_IP_NF_FTP is ON (M or Y), both ip_conntrack_ftp.c AND ip_nat_ftp.c are compiled (module or static, as user wishes) I'm asking myself if we now should be proud of having the most complicated dependencies of the whole kernel ;) -- Live long and prosper - Harald Welte / laforge@gnumonks.org http://www.gnumonks.org ============================================================================ GCS/E/IT d- s-: a-- C+++ UL++++$ P+++ L++++$ E--- W- N++ o? K- w--- O- M- V-- PS+ PE-- Y+ PGP++ t++ 5-- !X !R tv-- b+++ DI? !D G+ e* h+ r% y+(*) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:24:17 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:24:07 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:12304 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:23:55 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:24:52 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Harald Welte Cc: jeff millar , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: comments on CML 1.1.0 Message-ID: <20010417102452.A27702@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Harald Welte , jeff millar , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org In-Reply-To: <200104140317.f3E3Hv805992@snark.thyrsus.com> <20010414150421.A28066@l-t.ee> <002601c0c4fb$c7e54260$0201a8c0@home> <20010414155153.A12421@thyrsus.com> <20010416223159.M16697@corellia.laforge.distro.conectiva> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010416223159.M16697@corellia.laforge.distro.conectiva>; from laforge@gnumonks.org on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 10:31:59PM -0300 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Harald Welte : > Unfortunately I don't know too much about CML2, so I cannot provide you with > a straightforward ruleset, only with a description: : > I'm asking myself if we now should be proud of having the most complicated > dependencies of the whole kernel ;) That's truly nasty. I've attempted to translate these, but I'm not at all sure I've got them right. I'd appreciate it if you would take a look at the rules file after I ship 1.1.4. -- Eric S. Raymond "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:22:15 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:22:06 -0400 Received: from waste.org ([209.173.204.2]:25872 "EHLO waste.org") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:21:41 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:21:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Oliver Xymoron To: "Eric S. Raymond" cc: Marko Kreen , "Eric S. Raymond" , Subject: Re: comments on CML 1.1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010414164914.A12838@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > * the colors are hard to see (red/blue on black). Probably > > matter of terminal settings. I do not have any productive > > ideas tho... Probably to get best experience to as much > > people as possible the less colors are used the better. > > > > The 'blue: last visited submenu' is unnecessary. Especially > > because it later turns green... And the 'red' vs. 'green' > > thing. I guess the green should be used for 'visited entries' > > too. Now the red means like 'Doh. So I should not have > > touched this?'. Confusing. > > > > In other words: if there are too much colors, they become > > a thing that should be separately learned, not a helpful > > aid. > > > > All this IMHO ofcourse. Colors are 'matter of taste' thing > > so there probably is not exact Rigth Thing. > > You make good points. In the 1.1.1, blue and yellow/brown will be gone; > it's just green for everything visited. I haven't had a chance to take a look, but a heads-up about color confusion issues. There may be no right thing, but there are plenty of wrong things. For instance, for about 4% of people (8% of males), RGB FFFF00 and 00FF00 are nearly indistiguishable, as are FF00FF and 0000FF. -- "Love the dolphins," she advised him. "Write by W.A.S.T.E.."