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From: Jan Hudec <bulb@ucw.cz>
To: Jamie Lokier <jamie@shareable.org>
Cc: John Stoffel <john@stoffel.org>,
	"Artem B. Bityuckiy" <dedekind@oktetlabs.ru>,
	Ville Herva <v@iki.fi>,
	linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: filesystem transactions API
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:34:12 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20050427093412.GB1904@vagabond> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20050426152434.GB14297@mail.shareable.org>

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On Tue, Apr 26, 2005 at 16:24:34 +0100, Jamie Lokier wrote:
> John Stoffel wrote:
> > >>>>> "Jamie" == Jamie Lokier <jamie@shareable.org> writes:
> > 
> > Jamie> No.  A transaction means that _all_ processes will see the
> > Jamie> whole transaction or not.
> > 
> > This is really hard.  How do you handle the case where process X
> > starts a transaction modifies files a, b & c, but process Y has file b
> > open for writing, and never lets it go?  Or the file gets unlinked?  
> 
> Then it starts to depend on what kind of transactions you want to
> implement.
> 
> You can say that a transaction isn't allowed when a process has one of
> the files opened for writing.  Or you can say a transaction is
> equivalent to calling all of the I/O system calls at once.  You can
> also decide if you want the reads and directory lookups performed in
> the transactions to become prerequisites for the transaction
> completing (so it's aborted if another process writes to those file
> regions or changes the directory structure in a way which breaks a
> prerequisite), or if you want those to lock the things which are read
> for the duration of the transaction, or even just ignore reads for
> transaction purposes.  Or, you can say that transactions are limited
> to just directory structure, and not file contents (that's good enough
> for package management), or you can say they're limited to just file
> contents (that's good enough for databases and text file edits).
> 
> Etc, etc, quite a lot of semantic choices.

How do we specify which calls belong to a transaction? By some kind of
extra file handle?

I'd think having global per-process transaction is not the best way.
So I think we should have some kind of transaction handle (probably in
the file handle space) and a way to say that a syscall is done within
a transaction. To avoid duplicating all syscalls, we could have
set_active_transaction() operation.

Now I think the criteria for semantics should be serializability. That
would mean, that lookup paths would have to be locked IFF the lookup was
done within the transaction -- but you would be free to open a file
without transaction, then set_active_transaction and write that file.
That way the write would become atomic, but someone else could freely
rename the file from under you.

Note: Editors currently write to a temporary file and rename over the
original (if they have permissions to do it), which is as good
transaction as they need.

> > What about programs that are already open and running?  
> > 
> > It might be doable in some sense, but I can see that details are
> > really hard to get right.  Esp without breaking existing Unix
> > semantics.  
> 
> It's even harder without kernel support! :)

If every syscall (touching filesystem) was turned into a transaction of
it's own, it wouldn't break any semantics.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
						 Jan 'Bulb' Hudec <bulb@ucw.cz>

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  parent reply	other threads:[~2005-04-27  9:34 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 95+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2005-04-24 20:08 [PATCH] private mounts Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-24 20:13 ` Al Viro
2005-04-24 20:45   ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-24 20:18 ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-04-24 20:50   ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-24 20:54     ` Al Viro
2005-04-24 20:59       ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-24 21:06         ` Al Viro
2005-04-24 21:15           ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-24 21:19             ` Al Viro
2005-04-24 21:29               ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-24 21:39                 ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-25  7:10                 ` Jan Hudec
2005-04-25  9:58                   ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-25 11:45                     ` Jan Hudec
2005-04-30  8:35                     ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-04-30  9:25                       ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-30  9:42                         ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-30 10:14                           ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-30 14:36                             ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-30 15:59                               ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-30 16:42                                 ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-30 17:07                                   ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-30 18:20                                     ` Olivier Galibert
2005-04-30 23:58                                       ` Jamie Lokier
2005-05-01  2:39                                         ` Ram
2005-04-30 23:54                                     ` Jamie Lokier
2005-05-01  5:56                                       ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-05-01  6:39                                         ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-05-01 15:41                                         ` Eric Van Hensbergen
2005-05-11  9:00                         ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-05-11 10:42                           ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-24 21:43               ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-24 22:06                 ` maciek
2005-04-25  7:14                 ` Jan Hudec
2005-04-27  9:14                 ` Helge Hafting
2005-04-25  9:48               ` Olivier Galibert
2005-04-25 16:37                 ` Tim Hockin
2005-04-30  8:37                 ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-04-25 21:09               ` Bryan Henderson
2005-04-26 13:46                 ` filesystem transactions API Ville Herva
2005-04-26 14:14                   ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-26 14:22                     ` Artem B. Bityuckiy
2005-04-26 14:32                       ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-26 14:46                         ` Artem B. Bityuckiy
2005-04-26 15:19                           ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-26 15:01                         ` John Stoffel
2005-04-26 15:12                           ` Lars Marowsky-Bree
2005-04-26 15:19                           ` Trond Myklebust
2005-04-26 15:47                             ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-26 15:51                               ` Artem B. Bityuckiy
2005-04-26 15:56                                 ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-26 16:01                                   ` Artem B. Bityuckiy
2005-04-27  9:14                                     ` Jan Hudec
2005-04-27 10:58                                       ` Bernd Eckenfels
2005-04-26 15:24                           ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-26 17:22                             ` Diego Calleja
2005-04-26 17:38                               ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-27  9:34                             ` Jan Hudec [this message]
2005-04-27 13:43                               ` Ville Herva
2005-04-27 15:17                                 ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-27 16:58                                   ` Bernd Eckenfels
2005-04-26 15:40                       ` Charles P. Wright
2005-04-26 16:07                         ` Artem B. Bityuckiy
2005-04-26 17:22                           ` Charles P. Wright
2005-04-27  9:37                         ` Lars Marowsky-Bree
2005-04-27 13:36                       ` Andi Kleen
2005-04-26 14:25                   ` Trond Myklebust
2005-04-26 16:22                   ` Erik Hensema
2005-04-24 21:38           ` [PATCH] private mounts Jamie Lokier
2005-04-24 22:20             ` Ram
2005-04-24 22:22               ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-25  6:00             ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-25  6:41               ` Ram
2005-04-25  9:55                 ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-25  7:22               ` Jan Hudec
2005-04-25 10:08                 ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-25 15:20             ` Pavel Machek
2005-04-25 19:07               ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-26  9:29                 ` Pavel Machek
2005-04-26 14:07                   ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-28 13:28                     ` Eric Van Hensbergen
2005-04-28 19:22                       ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-28 13:47                     ` Eric Van Hensbergen
2005-04-28 19:20                       ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-28 19:39                         ` Ram
2005-04-28 22:08                           ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-29  7:57                             ` Ram
2005-04-29 14:13                               ` Miklos Szeredi
2005-04-29 14:42                                 ` Jamie Lokier
2005-04-29 14:50                                   ` Question about current->namespace and check_mnt() Jamie Lokier
2005-04-30  8:33                 ` [PATCH] private mounts Christoph Hellwig
2005-04-30 16:47                   ` Ram
2005-04-24 21:06         ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-04-24 21:12           ` Jamie Lokier

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