From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S932457AbVL1Dcd (ORCPT ); Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:32:33 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S932459AbVL1Dcd (ORCPT ); Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:32:33 -0500 Received: from xenotime.net ([66.160.160.81]:35778 "HELO xenotime.net") by vger.kernel.org with SMTP id S932457AbVL1Dcd (ORCPT ); Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:32:33 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:33:09 -0800 From: "Randy.Dunlap" To: Michael Clark Cc: pwil3058@bigpond.net.au, rlrevell@joe-job.com, s0348365@sms.ed.ac.uk, rostedt@goodmis.org, jaco@kroon.co.za, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, pavel@ucw.cz Subject: Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2) Message-Id: <20051227193309.756f654a.rdunlap@xenotime.net> In-Reply-To: <43B20657.30508@metaparadigm.com> References: <43AF7724.8090302@kroon.co.za> <200512261535.09307.s0348365@sms.ed.ac.uk> <1135619641.8293.50.camel@mindpipe> <200512262003.38552.s0348365@sms.ed.ac.uk> <1135630831.8293.89.camel@mindpipe> <43B1D6C6.30300@metaparadigm.com> <43B1E5C1.4050908@bigpond.net.au> <43B1F203.6010401@metaparadigm.com> <20051227181239.3338b848.rdunlap@xenotime.net> <43B204F1.1010409@bigpond.net.au> <43B20657.30508@metaparadigm.com> Organization: YPO4 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 11:28:23 +0800 Michael Clark wrote: > Peter Williams wrote: > > > Randy.Dunlap wrote: > > > >> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:01:39 +0800 Michael Clark wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Peter Williams wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Michael Clark wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Lee Revell wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:03 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Monday 26 December 2005 17:54, Lee Revell wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 15:35 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> [snip] > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I use pine and evolution. Pine is text based and great when I > >>>>>>>>>> ssh into > >>>>>>>>>> my machine to work. Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine > >>>>>>>>>> and it > >>>>>>>>>> handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu > >>>>>>>>>> "Normal" > >>>>>>>>>> may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text > >>>>>>>>>> files > >>>>>>>>>> "as-is"). > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> This is also the way to do it with Thunderbird. It will do the right > >>>>> thing (and disables all formatting changes such as line wrapping > >>>>> to the > >>>>> inserted text) if you select 'Preformat' before pasting in a patch > >>>>> - at > >>>>> least my Thunderbird 1.0.7 does this. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a > >>>>>>>>> long time. > >>>>>>>>> It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes > >>>>>>>>> are left > >>>>>>>>> untouched. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has > >>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>> problem. AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline > >>>>>>>> patches and > >>>>>>>> even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a > >>>>>>>> serious > >>>>>>>> usability/UI issue. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to > >>>>>>>> SubmittingPatches be accepted? Then we can point the Mozilla > >>>>>>>> developers > >>>>>>>> at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far) > >>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> hopefully this will light a fire under someone. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Fundamentally the issue with Thunderbird is that it line-wraps > >>>>>>> AFTER you compose an email, not during composition. I've never > >>>>>>> understood how, or why this is useful to the end user, except for > >>>>>>> composing HTML emails (which should be banned anyway). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> Thunderbird will not linewrap anything that is inserted in > >>>>> 'Preformat' mode. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> Thunderbird is Yet Another mailer that could have been a good piece > >>>>>>> of software if it hadn't attempted to be a clone of Outlook Express > >>>>>>> (defaulting to Top Posting, HTML composition, line wrapping > >>>>>>> pastes). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It's the mindset; fixing Thunderbird is probably easy, but > >>>>>>> convincing the Mozilla developers to include such "fixes" is > >>>>>>> probably much harder. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Should be trivial to fix, when the user puts the editor into > >>>>>> "Preformat" > >>>>>> mode or inserts a text file you surround it with 
 tags.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Fix the user behaviour you mean? Get them to select 'Preformat'
> >>>>> before
> >>>>> pasting patches into Thunderbird.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> In my thunderbird, the "Paste Without Formatting" mode seems to be
> >>>> continually grayed out (i.e. unavailable).  I couldn't find anything
> >>>> in the preferences that altered this situation.  What's the secret?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I'm selecting 'Preformat' in the email compose window and using regular
> >>> X Paste (middle button) - and it works for me (I can save the resulting
> >>> message to a .eml and diff it against the patch and it is perfect).
> >>> Perhaps the Debian/Sid Thunderbird has some patch? Don't know.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> so where is this 'Preformat' option?  I don't see it.
> >
> >
> > Nor me.
> >
> It is a drop down box in the Compose window just below the subject field
> on the left (intially says "Body Text").

However, if one has disabled "Compose messages in HTML format",
that drop-down list does not show up.
So does this generate an HTML email, using  or  etc.?
If so, still bad.  I'll test it to myself.

> If you haven't got the rich text Compose enabled (not sure how you
> disable/enable this but it was an option in Mozilla Mail) you can hold
> down shift when you click 'Write'.
> 
> I'm running Debian/Sid Thunderbird 1.0.7 BTW.


---
~Randy