From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1030613AbWLILw3 (ORCPT ); Sat, 9 Dec 2006 06:52:29 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1030608AbWLILw2 (ORCPT ); Sat, 9 Dec 2006 06:52:28 -0500 Received: from mo-p07-ob.rzone.de ([81.169.146.188]:37172 "EHLO mo-p07-ob.rzone.de" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1030613AbWLILw1 (ORCPT ); Sat, 9 Dec 2006 06:52:27 -0500 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 12:49:34 +0100 (MET) From: Stefan Rompf To: Thomas Graf Subject: Re: [NETLINK]: Schedule removal of old macros exported to userspace User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 Cc: David Miller , drow@false.org, dwmw2@infradead.org, joseph@codesourcery.com, netdev@vger.kernel.org, libc-alpha@sourceware.org, akpm@osdl.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org References: <20061208.134752.131916271.davem@davemloft.net> <20061208.171455.11932070.davem@davemloft.net> <20061209103953.GN8693@postel.suug.ch> In-Reply-To: <20061209103953.GN8693@postel.suug.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200612091249.39302.stefan@loplof.de> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Am Samstag, 9. Dezember 2006 11:39 schrieb Thomas Graf: [Added linux-kernel to CC] > Index: net-2.6/Documentation/feature-removal-schedule.txt > =================================================================== > --- net-2.6.orig/Documentation/feature-removal-schedule.txt 2006-12-09 NAK. > +What: Netlink message and attribute parsing macros > +When: July 2007 > +Why: The old interface which often lead to buggy code has been replaced > + with a new type safe interface. Parts of this interface, mainly > + macros, has been exported to userspace via linux/netlink.h and > + linux/rtnetlink.h. Use of this interface is discontinued, all > helper + and utility macros will be removed. Userspace applications > should use + one of the available libraries. > +Who: Thomas Graf So glibc should be linked to libnl that depends on glibc to compile? Be serious! I see a worrying tendency of kernel developers trying to push their stable-api-is-nonsense approach to userspace. You cannot just go ahead and remove userspace API that has been exported for years in a six month period. 99,9% of application developers are not even aware that feature-removal-schedule.txt exists. Sorry, these macros will have to stay for *years*, even though they are ugly. Btw, do you know why I didn't realize the breakage before a user alerted me? I stopped testing and running every new kernel. Reason? It was stated that 2.6.18 requires a mandatory upgrade of udev bloat. Last time I needed to compile a new udev because of incompatible sysfs changes, it took me over three hours to get my notebook running again. Considering that I need to do actual money earning work on that system, 2.6.17.x runs nicely and has no new bugs that concern me, I just keep using it. Collateral damage. You know, I'm not so happy with the in kernel stable-api-is-nonsense approach because it does create insecurity for developers and therefore bugs. Anyway, I accept it, I'm just a part time kernel hacker. But behaving towards applications developers this way is *deadly* for linux acceptance! Stuff like KDE, or a postgres database server, or whatever is complex enough that developers don't have time to follow userspace breakage introduced just because of ugly macros. Stefan