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From: Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu>
To: Rusty Russell <rusty@rustcorp.com.au>
Cc: Herbert Xu <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>,
	akpm@linux-foundation.org, tj@kernel.org, hpa@zytor.com,
	brgerst@gmail.com, ebiederm@xmission.com,
	cl@linux-foundation.org, travis@sgi.com,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, steiner@sgi.com, hugh@veritas.com,
	"David S. Miller" <davem@davemloft.net>,
	netdev@vger.kernel.org,
	Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@polymtl.ca>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] percpu: add optimized generic percpu accessors
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:08:32 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20090116220832.GB20653@elte.hu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <200901170827.33729.rusty@rustcorp.com.au>


* Rusty Russell <rusty@rustcorp.com.au> wrote:

> On Friday 16 January 2009 10:48:24 Herbert Xu wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 01:15:44AM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> > >
> > > > So if you could design the API such that we have a variant of add/inc 
> > > > that automatically disables/enables preemption then we can optimise that 
> > > > away on x86.
> > > 
> > > Yeah. percpu_add(var, 1) does exactly that on x86.
> 
> <sigh>.  No it doesn't.

What do you mean by "No it doesn't". It does exactly what i claimed it 
does.

> It's really nice that everyone's excited about this, but it's more 
> complex than this.  Unf. I'm too busy preparing for linux.conf.au to 
> explain it all properly right now, but here's the highlights:
> 
> 1) This only works on static per-cpu vars.
>    - We are working on fixing this, but it's non-trivial for large allocs like
>      those in networking.  Small allocs, we have patches for.

How do difficulties of dynamic percpu-alloc make my above suggestion 
unsuitable for SNMP stats in networking? Most of those stats are not 
dynamically allocated - they are plain straightforward percpu variables.

Plus the majority of percpu usage is static - just like the majority of 
local variables is static, not dynamic. So any percpu-alloc complication 
is a non-issue.

> 2) The generic versions of these as posted by Tejun are unsuitable for
>    networking; they need to bh_disable.  That would make networking less
>    efficient than it is now for non-x86, and to be generic it would have
>    to be local_irq_save/restore anyway.

The generic versions will not be used on 95%+ of the active Linux systems 
out there, as they run on x86. If you worry about the remaining 5%, those 
can be optimized too.

> 3) local_t was designed to do exactly this: a fast cpu-local counter
>    implemented optimally for each arch.  For sparc64, doing a trivalue version
>    seems optimal, for s390 atomics, for x86 single-insn, for powerpc
>    irq_save/restore, etc.

But local_t does not actually solve this problem at all - because one 
still has to have per-cpu-ness.

> 4) Unfortunately, local_t has been extended beyond a simple counter, meaning
>    it now has more complex requirements (eg. Mathieu wants nmi-safe, even
>    though that's impossible on sparc and parisc, and percpu_counter wants
>    local_add_return, which makes trival less desirable).  These discussions
>    are on the back burner at the moment, but ongoing.

In reality local_t has almost zero users in the kernel - despite being 
with us at least since v2.6.12. That pretty much tells us all about its 
utility.

The thing is, local_t without proper percpu integration is a toothless 
tiger in the jungle. And our APIS do exactly that kind of integration and 
i expect them to be more popular than local_t. There's already a dozen 
usage sites of it in arch/x86.

	Ingo

  parent reply	other threads:[~2009-01-16 22:10 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 109+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2009-01-13 10:38 [PATCHSET linux-2.6-x86:tip] x86: make percpu offsets zero-based on SMP Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 10:38 ` [PATCH 01/13] x86_64: fix pda_to_op() Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 10:38 ` [PATCH 02/13] x86: make early_per_cpu() a lvalue and use it Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 11:43   ` [PATCH 02/13 UPDATED] " Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 10:38 ` [PATCH 03/13] x86_64: Cleanup early setup_percpu references Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 10:38 ` [PATCH 04/13] x86_32: make vmlinux_32.lds.S use PERCPU() macro Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 10:38 ` [PATCH 05/13] x86_64: make percpu symbols zerobased on SMP Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 10:38 ` [PATCH 06/13] x86_64: load pointer to pda into %gs while brining up a CPU Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 10:38 ` [PATCH 07/13] x86_64: use static _cpu_pda array Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 10:38 ` [PATCH 08/13] x86_64: fold pda into percpu area on SMP Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 10:38 ` [PATCH 09/13] x86_64: merge 64 and 32 SMP percpu handling Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 10:38 ` [PATCH 10/13] x86_64: make pda a percpu variable Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 10:38 ` [PATCH 11/13] x86_64: convert pda ops to wrappers around x86 percpu accessors Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 10:38 ` [PATCH 12/13] x86_64: misc clean up after the percpu update Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 10:38 ` [PATCH 13/13] x86_32: make percpu symbols zerobased on SMP Tejun Heo
2009-01-14  0:18   ` Rusty Russell
2009-01-14  2:03     ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 10:48 ` [PATCHSET linux-2.6-x86:tip] x86: make percpu offsets zero-based " Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 13:27   ` Brian Gerst
2009-01-13 14:05     ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-13 14:26       ` Brian Gerst
2009-01-13 14:37         ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-14  6:57       ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-14  9:38         ` [patch] add optimized generic percpu accessors Ingo Molnar
2009-01-14  9:45           ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-15 10:04           ` roel kluin
2009-01-15 10:26             ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-15 11:32               ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-15 11:36                 ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-15 12:22                   ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-15 13:09                     ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-15 13:32                       ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-15 13:33                         ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-15 13:39                         ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-15 21:54                           ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-16  1:28                             ` [PATCH x86/percpu] x86: fix build bug introduced during merge Tejun Heo
2009-01-16  3:25                               ` [PATCH x86/percpu] x86_64: initialize this_cpu_off to __per_cpu_load Tejun Heo
2009-01-16 13:16                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-16 13:47                                   ` Tejun Heo
     [not found]                                     ` <20090116221651.GA32736@elte.hu>
     [not found]                                       ` <20090116223828.GA9294@elte.hu>
     [not found]                                         ` <49716F0E.7060605@gmail.com>
     [not found]                                           ` <49716FBF.7080203@kernel.org>
2009-01-17  6:29                                             ` [PATCH core/percpu REPOST] linker script: add missing VMLINUX_SYMBOL Tejun Heo
2009-01-17  6:32                                               ` [PATCH] linker script: add missing .data.percpu.page_aligned Tejun Heo
2009-01-17  8:21                                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-21 23:46                                                 ` Christoph Lameter
2009-01-21 23:45                                               ` [PATCH core/percpu REPOST] linker script: add missing VMLINUX_SYMBOL Christoph Lameter
2009-01-15 22:34                           ` [patch] add optimized generic percpu accessors Ingo Molnar
2009-01-15 20:31                     ` Christoph Lameter
2009-01-16  9:41                       ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-16 13:23                         ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-16 13:49                           ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-15 10:26           ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-15 11:30             ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-15 11:38               ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-15 12:26                 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-15 13:04                   ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-15 13:07                     ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-15 13:23                       ` [PATCH] percpu: " Tejun Heo
2009-01-15 13:36                         ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-15 17:30                         ` Andrew Morton
2009-01-15 18:02                           ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-15 18:34                             ` Andrew Morton
2009-01-15 18:39                               ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-15 21:53                                 ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-16  0:12                                 ` Herbert Xu
2009-01-16  0:15                                   ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-16  0:18                                     ` Herbert Xu
     [not found]                                       ` <200901170827.33729.rusty@rustcorp.com.au>
2009-01-16 22:08                                         ` Ingo Molnar [this message]
     [not found]                                           ` <200901201328.24605.rusty@rustcorp.com.au>
2009-01-20  6:25                                             ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-20 10:36                                               ` Ingo Molnar
     [not found]                                               ` <200901271213.18605.rusty@rustcorp.com.au>
2009-01-27  2:24                                                 ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-27 13:13                                                   ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-27 23:07                                                     ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-28  3:36                                                       ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-28  8:12                                                         ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-27 20:08                                                   ` Christoph Lameter
2009-01-27 21:47                                                     ` David Miller
2009-01-27 22:47                                                       ` Rick Jones
2009-01-28  0:17                                                         ` Luck, Tony
2009-01-28 16:48                                                           ` Christoph Lameter
2009-01-28 17:15                                                             ` Luck, Tony
2009-01-28 16:45                                                       ` Christoph Lameter
2009-01-28 20:47                                                         ` David Miller
2009-01-28 10:38                                                   ` Rusty Russell
2009-01-28 10:56                                                     ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-29  2:06                                                       ` Rusty Russell
2009-01-31  6:11                                                         ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-28 16:50                                                     ` Christoph Lameter
2009-01-28 18:07                                                       ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2009-01-29 18:33                                                         ` Christoph Lameter
2009-01-29 18:48                                                           ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-20 10:40                                             ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-21  5:52                                               ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-21 10:05                                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-21 11:21                                                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2009-01-21 12:45                                                   ` Stephen Hemminger
2009-01-21 14:13                                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2009-01-21 20:34                                                     ` David Miller
2009-01-16  1:09                                     ` H. Peter Anvin
     [not found]                                   ` <200901170804.18622.rusty@rustcorp.com.au>
2009-01-16 21:59                                     ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-16 22:09                                     ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-16 14:10                               ` Mark Lord
2009-01-15 18:46                         ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-31 10:36                         ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-01-15 13:59                     ` [patch] " roel kluin
2009-01-15 21:51                       ` Tejun Heo
     [not found]                 ` <200901170748.53734.rusty@rustcorp.com.au>
2009-01-16 21:24                   ` Ingo Molnar
     [not found]           ` <200901151253.44016.rusty@rustcorp.com.au>
2009-01-15  9:55             ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-15 10:27             ` Tejun Heo
2009-01-31 10:30           ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-01-31 16:00             ` Ingo Molnar

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