From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1756199Ab0ESUlf (ORCPT ); Wed, 19 May 2010 16:41:35 -0400 Received: from ogre.sisk.pl ([217.79.144.158]:48492 "EHLO ogre.sisk.pl" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1753514Ab0ESUld (ORCPT ); Wed, 19 May 2010 16:41:33 -0400 From: "Rafael J. Wysocki" To: felipe.balbi@nokia.com Subject: Re: [linux-pm] [PATCH 0/8] Suspend block api (version 6) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 22:42:55 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.12.4 (Linux/2.6.34-rjw; KDE/4.3.5; x86_64; ; ) Cc: ext James Bottomley , "me@felipebalbi.com" , Kevin Hilman , Alan Stern , "linux-omap@vger.kernel.org" , "Theodore Ts'o" , Geoff Smith , Brian Swetland , Kernel development list , Oleg Nesterov , Mark Brown , Tejun Heo , "Linux-pm mailing list" , Arjan van de Ven , Liam Girdwood , Matthew Garrett , Andrew Morton , Linus Torvalds References: <1274115885.4418.59.camel@mulgrave.site> <1274191188.10304.5.camel@mulgrave.site> <20100519065934.GH12879@nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <20100519065934.GH12879@nokia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201005192242.55706.rjw@sisk.pl> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Wednesday 19 May 2010, Felipe Balbi wrote: > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 03:59:48PM +0200, ext James Bottomley wrote: > >On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 09:40 +0300, Felipe Balbi wrote: > >> On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 09:49:35PM +0200, ext James Bottomley wrote: > >> >Right, because Firmware writers are from the rugged unresponsive uplands > >> >of planet > >> >ignore-user-complaints-and-eat-them-for-breakfast-if-they-file-bugs and > >> >Software writers are from the emollient responsive groves of planet > >> >harmony. Obviously what would work for one wouldn't work for the other. > >> > > >> >As a software writer, I fully buy into that world view. The trouble is > >> >that when I go to dinner with hardware people, they seem to be awfully > >> >nice chaps ... almost exactly like me, in fact ... > >> > >> what does this add to suspend_blockers discussion ? > > > >Sorry I was evidently being too subtle. > > > >The point is that if, as you acknowledge, that you can't train firmware > >engineers to be responsive, there's no reason to think you can train > >software engineers in the same quality ... they're very similar people. > > I wouldn't say it's up to the engineer himself, it's more related to how > the company that person works for deal with such things. > > >The corollary is that real world systems have to operate in the face of > >misbehaving hardware *and* software. > > I still think the kernel shouldn't deal with broken applications and we > shouldn't try to fix them in kernel space. We can, of course, try to > find them and have all sorts of bells and whistles shouting 'process > %s is preventing CPU from sleeping for %llu nanoseconds' or something > like that. Please note that this approach is not too practical for vendors who ship systems like cell phones to the general public. Rafael