From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S933800AbbCPU6F (ORCPT ); Mon, 16 Mar 2015 16:58:05 -0400 Received: from 251.110.2.81.in-addr.arpa ([81.2.110.251]:55445 "EHLO lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1754309AbbCPU56 (ORCPT ); Mon, 16 Mar 2015 16:57:58 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:57:32 +0000 From: One Thousand Gnomes To: David Lang Cc: Matthew Garrett , "keescook@chromium.org" , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , "james.l.morris@oracle.com" , "serge@hallyn.com" , "linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org" , "hpa@zytor.com" Subject: Re: Trusted kernel patchset Message-ID: <20150316205732.1d82a9dd@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> In-Reply-To: References: <1426282708-21485-1-git-send-email-matthew.garrett@nebula.com> <20150316144504.4e013789@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <1426529700.22371.20.camel@nebula.com> Organization: Intel Corporation X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.11.1 (GTK+ 2.24.25; x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org > Anything that encourages deploying systems that can't be upgraded to fix bugs > that are discovered is a problem. > > This is an issue that the Internet of Things folks are just starting to notice, > and it's only going to get worse before it gets better. > > How do you patch bugs on your non-volitile media? What keeps that mechansim from > being abused. One example is flash memory that can only be written by a special part of the system which verifies the signatures then writes the data to the flash. That to most intents and purposes is "non volatile". In some environments jumpers or particular sequences of holding buttons in may deal with it - if they are handled such that malicious software cannot do it. Some systems go further than that and do measure the boot path - so modern x86 firmware will typically not allow you to flash the BIOS firmware except from measured firmware, and won't run the result without checking signatures. Not everything goes that far. The IoT and general security underfunding is a social and economic issue however, and isn't soluble by technical means. It will be fixed when the lawmakers finally stop listening to the lobbyists, or when something *really bad* happens and they extend liability law to paid services and licensed components of sold products on the back of either some massive disruptive hack or serious loss of life. Alan