From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=3.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_PASS,USER_AGENT_MUTT autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C64CECDE39 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:36:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [209.132.180.67]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FDA214AB for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:36:53 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key) header.d=sirena.org.uk header.i=@sirena.org.uk header.b="f8/vMp0a" DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org 21FDA214AB Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=kernel.org Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1728266AbeJRCds (ORCPT ); Wed, 17 Oct 2018 22:33:48 -0400 Received: from heliosphere.sirena.org.uk ([172.104.155.198]:38568 "EHLO heliosphere.sirena.org.uk" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1728111AbeJRCds (ORCPT ); Wed, 17 Oct 2018 22:33:48 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sirena.org.uk; s=20170815-heliosphere; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=C3cGZaKoN0VJVUxyAopSe63xneJujRNqGUysllzFYe4=; b=f8/vMp0a0TOK0911+74vGcFOk aryG4UfD8KVDVwJtMOWqVXmuOtzpsKrqPeG4X1+Q/cGjVEAaCMK1BvRe9Cg+S5rl5J4kG5FlCtqQc 1OfYV5vrVT1BRstKafDFQIHmt+7hoVHEhCJLSYdcSQBWWQl9pXNte/4pXNuB7H7qJJcJo=; Received: from cpc102320-sgyl38-2-0-cust46.18-2.cable.virginm.net ([82.37.168.47] helo=debutante.sirena.org.uk) by heliosphere.sirena.org.uk with esmtpa (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1gCqgX-0001mi-GQ; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:36:45 +0000 Received: by debutante.sirena.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2BCD111224C4; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 19:36:45 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 19:36:45 +0100 From: Mark Brown To: Josh Triplett Cc: Geert Uytterhoeven , James Bottomley , Linux Kernel Mailing List , ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, tomi.valkeinen@iki.fi Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH] code-of-conduct: Remove explicit list of discrimination factors Message-ID: <20181017183645.GF24097@sirena.org.uk> References: <20181017071902.30102-1-geert@linux-m68k.org> <20181017091325.GA15991@localhost> <20181017152101.GA17531@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qp4W5+cUSnZs0RIF" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20181017152101.GA17531@localhost> X-Cookie: No passing zone. User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org --qp4W5+cUSnZs0RIF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 08:21:02AM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote: > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:31:35AM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:13 AM Josh Triplett wrote: > > > it does, however, ensure that the listed cases *are*, > > > and helps people know that they're covered. > > So you agree people cannot know if the unlisted cases are covered or not? > People in underrepresented and commonly marginalized groups, especially > those more commonly overlooked, don't always know if a given group has > taken their particular group into account or given any thought to it. > Explicit inclusion helps, and this is a standard guideline often cited > for good codes of conduct. I have heard some complaints that the strong push to include these lists has ended up devaluing them, it becomes hard for people to tell if the list is just a cut'n'paste job or if the people responsible for the code of conduct really understand the issues affecting the groups they include and it can be extra disappointing if there are problems. I particularly remember a friend of mine getting into an argument with a conference being hosted somewhere where being gay was a capital offence questioning the inclusion of sexuality on their list, it seemed fairly clear that the organizers meant well and were trying to do the right thing but weren't really aware. This doesn't mean don't try but it's definitely a factor to consider, especially when using an off the shelf code of conduct - there's just never going to be a single right answer with a lot of this stuff. --qp4W5+cUSnZs0RIF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAABCgAdFiEEreZoqmdXGLWf4p/qJNaLcl1Uh9AFAlvHgTwACgkQJNaLcl1U h9Bniwf+LC4ISLfH5qYEub4eZn4WnzXcdKyuXubvVrA1ngv4B3aYC+LDhhkPGuxG QT34pKccnfWP1xlHzfX06HjzUauAn7U1V2tDolk/jTvPUDEsbLCwNxYP8PX7ZdUc CMXlDCBucc3tklmb8U+gq9EN2Yd01BSBDf8El9zx6hbLlRFvbszVlMRTl4AO3l/i qyefsKEJF3cqS1ZzKDxeGijUkzpCOjEEJVRnCq0wSrMTsoeLZotTw/5fngWxmkl7 slBVNhj1+Jc8edmlsoj6rbxMkkgdCAOoXYW7nUWfgrkNx6KMkOvq2Q4k8Z0Iwwp9 sujylZGyuoe5cBNVVOG4b60MwNyL1A== =9Rke -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qp4W5+cUSnZs0RIF--