From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from casper.infradead.org (casper.infradead.org [90.155.50.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8F6E3009D4 for ; Mon, 25 May 2026 09:14:21 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=90.155.50.34 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1779700464; cv=none; b=q7WM2x1/XFaE1SLutNwBXkOFKEWaggvpWYrCyNZYfhFYB7FKNx1/s9SOGj2+2T1yGJxw0OH13JlLB69yzTf5V+VMoMk9VniVoy5bFvPNolNpyGn/VmFsg6jwhTFlUQe8OGkGNeyfRCOkYqXeUNRNBQfoBEVilMQ/ZovPvv4IDBE= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1779700464; c=relaxed/simple; bh=Wxc9pwDZZvzGNWDn7ujJD4FujcH1Syj4b0Q+I0kwTac=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=TJ+4yQDWbHb5fGw0gfXMqcYBc6EKKU7WKsEVkoxnJQmwdsRsPqG8mUmUK2t6tPjFaYXDd/WeulewLMf0hPtoZ68h/LnURf8d510NOyMUXHhANGau9kQSDmETBAzVQb3v3uL2HQBBnVqBG+qpECglnWzGV7HKmPfEGoSp88PefJ8= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=infradead.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=casper.srs.infradead.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=infradead.org header.i=@infradead.org header.b=a9AUcsHt; arc=none smtp.client-ip=90.155.50.34 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=infradead.org Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=casper.srs.infradead.org Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=infradead.org header.i=@infradead.org header.b="a9AUcsHt" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=infradead.org; s=casper.20170209; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:References: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=b79EBOeAKVoCo56SUeDnKae29PxJEPsfRqMhw9BRC1U=; b=a9AUcsHtW8ld2b2C08khLkEL9y 9avgXuknPj2p34vNcz26emuNPRemDfsQ9L3dfmg4PYUWTufqg9aLwd/hzNcV3E6hmp5m9N7aAxVNp O6NF2Io6582pYW1I54vBjnE4TvXIF8lmstcUqd7Iontz/o//GvXZpx02HR8SjVNFc2saWustA0aTq XiNWGAmQRjirP4ns4sDx8WdMY4kZjI89MmyVF1gVj7JVAjh7oMIkCh1Of0/t1BJnhvVwrS9yujdni tfD0wxwckv04+QrISB4ItxcKil1NUyNdLpTXCUBZ+Xaz5QpVFkQrxc0392C0uZ1NBm5+euSPpGOrq 1f3e/BTw==; Received: from 54-240-197-239.amazon.com ([54.240.197.239] helo=u09cd745991455d.ant.amazon.com) by casper.infradead.org with esmtpsa (Exim 4.99.1 #2 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1wRRNz-0000000GT6t-3oN3; Mon, 25 May 2026 09:14:12 +0000 Message-ID: <5323ed2a67d3a72d37f98ba04f2444841bc7bfae.camel@infradead.org> Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v2 0/8] timekeeping: Fix draft tracking precision and add feed-forward discipline via vmclock From: David Woodhouse To: Miroslav Lichvar Cc: Richard Cochran , Wen Gu , Andrew Lunn , "David S. Miller" , Eric Dumazet , Jakub Kicinski , Paolo Abeni , John Stultz , Thomas Gleixner , Stephen Boyd , Anna-Maria Behnsen , Frederic Weisbecker , Shuah Khan , Peter Zijlstra , Thomas =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Wei=DFschuh?= , Arnd Bergmann , Julien Ridoux , Ryan Luu , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Marcelo Tosatti Date: Mon, 25 May 2026 10:14:10 +0100 In-Reply-To: References: <20260517220326.4625-1-dwmw2@infradead.org> <0d32da75fa88c92ac0225ef23a9045afdf2ac9fe.camel@infradead.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-3lLC9CuF3UmNJ2kUGVo2" User-Agent: Evolution 3.52.3-0ubuntu1.1 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SRS-Rewrite: SMTP reverse-path rewritten from by casper.infradead.org. See http://www.infradead.org/rpr.html --=-3lLC9CuF3UmNJ2kUGVo2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2026-05-25 at 10:08 +0200, Miroslav Lichvar wrote: > On Thu, May 21, 2026 at 10:54:41AM +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: > > On Thu, 2026-05-21 at 08:35 +0200, Miroslav Lichvar wrote: > > > Ok, but I don't see why the phase corrections of the guest need to be > > > in the kernel. > >=20 > > I'm not sure I understand.=C2=A0 > > <..clarification...> > > /* Compute phase offset at cycle_last and set time_offset to slew */ > ... > ntp_set_time_offset(tk->id, ref_err >> tk->tkr_mono.shift); >=20 Ah, I see. Thanks. But that's just using ->time_offset which has *always* been in the kernel. It's the same mechanism to apply phase offset that everything else (adjtime(), adjtimex(ADJ_SETOFFSET)) already uses.=20 The only thing that's different here is the calculation I elided between the comment and ntp_set_time_offset() call shown there, which is calculating *precisely* the offset to set in order to match the desired reference. There's nothing fundamental in the actual *timekeeping* here that hasn't already been in the guest kernel for decades; I'm just fixing a few arithmetic errors in the core code, and then *driving* it more precisely using its existing parameters (tick_length, time_offset). > There might be a disagreement on terminology. Those will be entirely my fault. > > It seems that when Julien et al lamented that, "Until now, however, > > there has been a serious practical issue inhibiting feed-forward > > approaches: a lack of kernel support", the basics were actually there > > in the kernel's core timekeeping all along. >=20 > From my point of view, the only missing piece is software timestamping > of packets using other clocks than CLOCK_REALTIME. For literal NTP, you mean? Yes, that makes sense. And having the NIC timestamp the packets using PTM would be great too. > > > > And TSC scaling is pretty much x86-specific; other architectures ha= ve a > > > > *defined* counter frequency and don't need to support scaling. > > >=20 > > > There can be a software fallback if hardware scaling and/or offset is > > > not supported. > >=20 > > Right. This *is* the software fallback, because the hardware scaling > > and offset aren't sufficient even if we only care about x86 where the > > former is supported. >=20 > IMHO it's a solution done at a wrong layer.=20 Understood. What do you believe is the better solution? Aside from the case of actually using NTP or a PHC to discipline the kernel's CLOCK_REALTIME, the use cases I'm trying to enable are: =E2=80=A2 (Micro)VM guest is *given* the TSC=E2=86=92realtime relationship= in a virt enlightenment, gets an interrupt whenever it changes. Can react to that interrupt and steer the kernel's timekeeping as quickly as any userspace d=C3=A6mon could do anything. =E2=80=A2 Dedicated virtual hosting environment needs to discipline the *T= SC* directly against external references (PHC, 1PPS) in order to provide said virt enlightenment directly to guests and allow for accurate migration. This environment does not care about the host's actual CLOCK_REALTIME; that's basically cosmetic for logging purposes. =E2=80=A2 Multi-purpose environment has a standard ntpd/chrony setup, want= s QEMU to be able to provide the same virt enlightenment based on the kernel's own timekeeping. Thomas and I seemed to be agreeing on a clock_[sg]et_time_reference() API which would allow for all of the above, with basically no change to the kernel's actual timekeeping: again, it's just exposing the *existing* parameters allowing for more precise control and visibility. Especially as userspace currently has no way to see what the kernel *thinks* the time should be at any given moment. It can only see the actual output of CLOCK_REALTIME, which is sawtoothing *around* the 'intended' value tracked by ntp_error, tick by tick. I was about to knock up a prototype of that (probably based on ioctls or read/write on a miscdev for now, just for the proof of concept. All the boilerplate of actual system call stuff can come later, if we like it). If you have a better suggestion, I'm more than happy to entertain it. --=-3lLC9CuF3UmNJ2kUGVo2 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCD9Aw ggSOMIIDdqADAgECAhAOmiw0ECVD4cWj5DqVrT9PMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMGUxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxEaWdpQ2VydCBJbmMxGTAXBgNVBAsTEHd3dy5kaWdpY2VydC5jb20xJDAi BgNVBAMTG0RpZ2lDZXJ0IEFzc3VyZWQgSUQgUm9vdCBDQTAeFw0yNDAxMzAwMDAwMDBaFw0zMTEx MDkyMzU5NTlaMEExCzAJBgNVBAYTAkFVMRAwDgYDVQQKEwdWZXJva2V5MSAwHgYDVQQDExdWZXJv a2V5IFNlY3VyZSBFbWFpbCBHMjCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAMjvgLKj jfhCFqxYyRiW8g3cNFAvltDbK5AzcOaR7yVzVGadr4YcCVxjKrEJOgi7WEOH8rUgCNB5cTD8N/Et GfZI+LGqSv0YtNa54T9D1AWJy08ZKkWvfGGIXN9UFAPMJ6OLLH/UUEgFa+7KlrEvMUupDFGnnR06 aDJAwtycb8yXtILj+TvfhLFhafxroXrflspavejQkEiHjNjtHnwbZ+o43g0/yxjwnarGI3kgcak7 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