From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from casper.infradead.org (casper.infradead.org [90.155.50.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 026902D3737; Thu, 4 Sep 2025 13:51:27 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=90.155.50.34 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1756993889; cv=none; b=QlRvcDny2xCcRQfFpO8LJFz1j0It7TNn1daR0nutTDdil1QSk+QJiXM0cjX7MRCQg+H7dBxDLhEMFELcBCw0vOWk/Jdyw4X7k2vNa8FE7P1ZlH2+Ok18JdrtNcMOnAKD0zWA9j76yU+O2VyuuuEQFXzpoAMDqVrKRWNwa3oQBV0= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1756993889; c=relaxed/simple; bh=Zxi7C0ATY6BymQmWMzDZHYf/g9plOrlZxzoD8NFYFSA=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=ly3ITy4am5igCY6VoYlFghMilm/mwI55zf+d4OjB2M2r30Uux3a+pI4AVnGhaMSkYEikZJ4+cWZsL3Y/pFgjKPPhmxSp1coGRDTpFvZauciAweFaq+CYs7F34TiiCHE9ntbOQv5d42fa5/7GfIEVhdXPZxTq0BzOeSCNONMBK9Q= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=infradead.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=casper.srs.infradead.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=infradead.org header.i=@infradead.org header.b=LIqZfI7S; arc=none smtp.client-ip=90.155.50.34 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=infradead.org Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=casper.srs.infradead.org Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=infradead.org header.i=@infradead.org header.b="LIqZfI7S" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=infradead.org; s=casper.20170209; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:References: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=Zxi7C0ATY6BymQmWMzDZHYf/g9plOrlZxzoD8NFYFSA=; b=LIqZfI7S6HUyRou7ocFksuSxLo gQHIcNFJzU3Fv3nm8CFCkAl24+gTyauOOJji02DKZroPFgbz5aASztx31I/oo5Q5lNBqDrvoOIvc/ QHU4h6wtSL86quCqNM0Jtn/FhcIZKZDnoewnC7SpdK2YLU9mcq6ryHC8Qa90bEppPIThqEBDi2xVi NCkGPz5Aqt6waz1yWGeFCKlH1jmPvJCqrnr1iyM0LEHsUTN9+K1P6CijKL6P6Z12I6DNNrF62HBDp cZw/iLVU2814yXtQjJhEp27OLTv7wynbKca7nbQi9aDwUVYO0dbD284jw2uWlYcljz5hifdnMs/DF oV0kHo5Q==; Received: from [54.239.6.190] (helo=freeip.amazon.com) by casper.infradead.org with esmtpsa (Exim 4.98.2 #2 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1uuAMw-00000001mCX-2WsD; Thu, 04 Sep 2025 13:51:19 +0000 Message-ID: <62d1231571c44b166a18181d724b32da33b38efb.camel@infradead.org> Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] Support "generic" CPUID timing leaf as KVM guest and host From: David Woodhouse To: Sean Christopherson Cc: Paul Durrant , Fred Griffoul , Colin Percival , Paolo Bonzini , Thomas Gleixner , Ingo Molnar , Borislav Petkov , Dave Hansen , "x86@kernel.org" , "H. Peter Anvin" , Vitaly Kuznetsov , "kvm@vger.kernel.org" , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , "Graf (AWS), Alexander" , Ajay Kaher , Alexey Makhalov Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2025 15:51:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <54BCC060-1C9B-4BE4-8057-0161E816A9A3@amazon.co.uk> <3268e953e14004d1786bf07c76ae52d98d0f8259.camel@infradead.org> <4a3be390fe559de0bd5c61d24853d88f96a6ab6a.camel@infradead.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-p38hJC7PSPu2oUUCdDqX" User-Agent: Evolution 3.52.3-0ubuntu1 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SRS-Rewrite: SMTP reverse-path rewritten from by casper.infradead.org. See http://www.infradead.org/rpr.html --=-p38hJC7PSPu2oUUCdDqX Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2025-09-04 at 06:25 -0700, Sean Christopherson wrote: > On Thu, Sep 04, 2025, David Woodhouse wrote: > > On Thu, 2025-09-04 at 04:59 -0700, Sean Christopherson wrote: > > >=20 > > > I thought the original problem being solved was that the _guest_ does= n't know the > > > effective TSC frequency?=C2=A0 Userspace can already get the effectiv= ely TSC frequency > > > via KVM_GET_TSC_KHZ, why do we need another uAPI to provide that?=C2= =A0 (Honest question, > > > I feel like I'm missing something) > >=20 > > I believe that KVM_GET_TSC_KHZ returns what userspace *asked* for the > > TSC frequency to be (vcpu->arch.virtual_tsc_khz), not what it actually > > ended up being based on the measured host frequency and the available > > scaling granularity (vcpu->hw_tsc_khz). >=20 > Ah, I see where you're coming from.=C2=A0 Purely out of curiosity, have y= ou done the > math to see if slop would be a problem in practice?=C2=A0 No worries if y= ou haven't, > just genuinely (and lazily) curious. It's in the single-digit MHz range generally. Probably not a problem in practice since the TSC varies with environmental conditions *anyway* and needs to be refined with NTP/etc. I'm more interested in getting the scaling information exactly right for the VMClock case, where we expose microsecond-precision time to the guest in terms of the TSC. > Anyways, I'm a-ok reporting that information in KVM_GET_SUPPORTED_CPUID (= again, > only with constant TSC and scaling).=C2=A0 Reporting the effective freque= ncy would be > useful for the host too, e.g. for sanity checks.=C2=A0 What I specificall= y want to > avoid is modifying guest CPUID at runtime. Hm, in some cases I thought KVM had deliberately moved *to* doing CPUID updates at runtime, so that its doesn't have to exempt the changable leaves from the sanity checks which prevent userspace from updating CPUID for a CPU which has already been run. It's not just the existing Xen TSC leaf which is updated at runtime in kvm_cpuid(). But I don't mind too much. If we give userspace a way to *know* the effective frequency, I'm OK with requiring that userspace do so and populate the corresponding CPUID leaves for itself, for Xen and KVM alike. We'd need to expose the FSB frequency too, not just TSC. I was only going with the runtime update because we are literally already *doing* it this way in KVM. > Hmm, the only wrinkle is that, if there is slop, KVM could report differe= nt > information when run on different platforms, e.g. after live migration.= =C2=A0 But so > long as that possibility is documented, I don't think it's truly problema= tic. > And it's another argument for not modifying guest CPUID directly; I'd rat= her let > userspace figure out whether or not they care about the divergence than s= ilently > change things from the guest's perspective. >=20 > Alternatively (or in addition to), part of me wants to stealtily update > KVM_GET_TSC_KHZ to report back the effective frequency, but I can see tha= t being > problematic, e.g. if a naive VMM reads KVM_GET_TSC_KHZ when saving vCPU s= tate for > live migration and after enough migrations, the slop ends up drastically = skewing > the guest's frequency. Indeed. And I also want to tell userspace the precise *ratio* being applied by hardware scaling, for the VMClock case where userspace definitely knows *better* about what the host TSC frequency is at this precise moment, and has to tell the guest what *its* TSC frequency is, with the same precision. --=-p38hJC7PSPu2oUUCdDqX Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCD9Aw ggSOMIIDdqADAgECAhAOmiw0ECVD4cWj5DqVrT9PMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMGUxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxEaWdpQ2VydCBJbmMxGTAXBgNVBAsTEHd3dy5kaWdpY2VydC5jb20xJDAi BgNVBAMTG0RpZ2lDZXJ0IEFzc3VyZWQgSUQgUm9vdCBDQTAeFw0yNDAxMzAwMDAwMDBaFw0zMTEx MDkyMzU5NTlaMEExCzAJBgNVBAYTAkFVMRAwDgYDVQQKEwdWZXJva2V5MSAwHgYDVQQDExdWZXJv a2V5IFNlY3VyZSBFbWFpbCBHMjCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAMjvgLKj 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