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Mon, 16 Jun 2025 07:02:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHBcR/KFEr6tqTnCHltQ+VrJiT6moThRhF0UozL35I/ow0X/uSWOEQ9XgxjQtT6GjShaQTWUA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:5707:b0:6fa:c46c:6fa6 with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-6fb47725e9emr140484276d6.12.1750082560204; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 07:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m8.users.ipa.redhat.com ([2603:7000:9400:fe80::baf]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 6a1803df08f44-6fb525553c3sm16042316d6.104.2025.06.16.07.02.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 16 Jun 2025 07:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7ad6d5f61d6cd602241966476252599800c6a304.camel@redhat.com> Subject: Re: Module signing and post-quantum crypto public key algorithms From: Simo Sorce To: James Bottomley , Ignat Korchagin , David Howells Cc: Herbert Xu , Stephan Mueller , torvalds@linux-foundation.org, Paul Moore , Lukas Wunner , Clemens Lang , David Bohannon , Roberto Sassu , keyrings@vger.kernel.org, linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org, linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 10:02:38 -0400 In-Reply-To: <3081793dc1d846dccef07984520fc544f709ca84.camel@HansenPartnership.com> References: <501216.1749826470@warthog.procyon.org.uk> <3081793dc1d846dccef07984520fc544f709ca84.camel@HansenPartnership.com> Organization: Red Hat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.56.1 (3.56.1-1.fc42) Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 On Fri, 2025-06-13 at 13:50 -0400, James Bottomley wrote: > I agree it's coming, but there's currently no date for post quantum > requirement in FIPS, which is the main driver for this. The driver is the CNSA 2.0 document which has precise deadlines, not FIPS. That said ML-KEM and ML-DSA can already be validated, so FIPS is also covered. > Current estimates say Shor's algorithm in "reasonable[1]" time requires > around a million qubits to break RSA2048, so we're still several orders > of magnitude off that. Note that you are citing sources that identify needed physical qbits for error correction, but what IBM publishes is a roadmap for *error corrected* logical qbits. If they can pull that off that computer will already be way too uncomfortably close (you need 2n+3 error corrected logical qbits to break RSA). > Grover's only requires just over 2,000 (which > is why NIST is worried about that first). Grover can at most half the search space, so it is not really a concern, even with the smallest key sizes the search space is still 2^64 ... so it makes little sense to spend a lot of engineering time to find all places where doubling key size break things and then do a micro-migration to that. It is better to focus the scarce resources on the long term. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > James >=20 > [1] you can change this by a couple of orders of magnitude depending on > how long you're willing to wait --=20 Simo Sorce Distinguished Engineer RHEL Crypto Team Red Hat, Inc