From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from casper.infradead.org (casper.infradead.org [90.155.50.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2A9F332EBD; Wed, 20 May 2026 18:29:57 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=90.155.50.34 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1779301803; cv=none; b=OchB0hKW5R3zQOngNefTdeZDwlumx5qKv6+VrZ6v7awxsq8fY6h+cCSJDOk6v6G7pPJzQcp/EZ+VMJhq31h0rZvjb/w5aygKGJSDRfPRB/AHKlBN3S6GsFixNDRlHrD84pbPZSKmHgi9RKCwze/1dLk7PiNvPvjKTjC8C3FuKE0= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1779301803; c=relaxed/simple; bh=w9Ikq54kyZZocqmozWL/YZIYuqcADz6X/bu5InIvuAA=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=HKjonKxJbK0Njq3k4JUseB9Xv2hl8G16mZxnK4MXEL77RJvG4DVlcnrapeXhVY9RBpw31c838F5fIHE5Oq9oveRM/6gPf8OCiCcMLTWezn9TJJl2jGXWmSak/B0UTx51Guiw45NJeFXrGFBXcLDNmbgPn6QDHxkPgqkZ1hifTFM= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=infradead.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=casper.srs.infradead.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=infradead.org header.i=@infradead.org header.b=ny8eIzPz; arc=none smtp.client-ip=90.155.50.34 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=infradead.org Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=casper.srs.infradead.org Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=infradead.org header.i=@infradead.org header.b="ny8eIzPz" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=infradead.org; s=casper.20170209; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:References: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=w9Ikq54kyZZocqmozWL/YZIYuqcADz6X/bu5InIvuAA=; b=ny8eIzPzOV0oK6bJ6yx4O5Z29r RmhEbXuORgsPdjCGa2pxr1NOKGaKvptiBzlwFWsflGtZtzhou+s4OaGi1zbV/dQD/vI9RJOPK9zi0 60hga+HpYUv1QjvpznsRBULjZtbWOT7BFWeeGOMMh4+e1JfgUxm/ZH6hBPjpG4TgsALAQrYQ08Fjp A6Osl3KFWx332Xk24jV8Tz8k9FWmwLK2aE7hAPZTMawEnNNYTKdV0cG5aoHOUSWk4hmfNaBAMQmAR gnnzUCl/9Fln4u0dl2tZG1RRIRJfqevUmcxBRhhtW/pPvj6YAT4e+0mWNWu164OZo01UAgNNemPHK hxT58iyw==; Received: from 54-240-197-235.amazon.com ([54.240.197.235] helo=freeip.amazon.com) by casper.infradead.org with esmtpsa (Exim 4.99.1 #2 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1wPlfz-00000007TDN-0U1h; Wed, 20 May 2026 18:29:51 +0000 Message-ID: <849307f7dcc7fd408321ce9be6d405e642014117.camel@infradead.org> Subject: Re: [PATCH] Documentation: KVM: Document guest-visible compatibility expectations From: David Woodhouse To: Oliver Upton Cc: Paolo Bonzini , Marc Zyngier , Will Deacon , Jonathan Corbet , Shuah Khan , kvm , Linux Doc Mailing List , "Kernel Mailing List, Linux" , Sean Christopherson , Jim Mattson , Joey Gouly , Suzuki K Poulose , Zenghui Yu , Catalin Marinas , Raghavendra Rao Ananta , Eric Auger , Kees Cook , Arnd Bergmann , Nathan Chancellor , linux-arm-kernel , kvmarm@lists.linux.dev, linux-kselftest Date: Wed, 20 May 2026 19:29:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: References: <86qzn7wp3y.wl-maz@kernel.org> <593a782c50f3c8656e13b36dfb975a67d43a908e.camel@infradead.org> <9d0429ddbe4d8c6993e74237c4395697f80092d6.camel@infradead.org> <1243d375846c4f4e20c229a6f09300126188fc8b.camel@infradead.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-rM3SP4T0Vb419/7oTOIv" User-Agent: Evolution 3.52.3-0ubuntu1.1 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SRS-Rewrite: SMTP reverse-path rewritten from by casper.infradead.org. See http://www.infradead.org/rpr.html --=-rM3SP4T0Vb419/7oTOIv Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2026-05-20 at 10:47 -0700, Oliver Upton wrote: > On Wed, May 20, 2026 at 12:33:52AM +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: > > On Tue, 2026-05-19 at 15:57 -0700, Oliver Upton wrote: > > > What ifs and maybes do not meet the bar, in my opinion, for preservin= g > > > bug emulation in KVM. Of course there could be a little flexibility w= ith > > > that but we need to have some way of discriminating between bug fixes > > > and genuine guest expectations around the behavior of virtual hardwar= e. > >=20 > > I believe you have this completely backwards. >=20 > No, I really don't. >=20 > Leaving every bugfix that could _possibly_ have a guest-visible impact > subject to drive-by scrutiny many years after the dust has settled is > not an acceptable working dynamic. Especially since it would appear > that the rest of the ecosystem has long since moved on from this > particular issue. That's reductio ad absurdum. I can continue to work around this one internally, sure. But I'm also concerned about the general case because not only did you refuse it, but you *also* said that this change in guest-visible behaviour "should've happened without a change to the revision number". Which seems to indicate that not only are you being randomly obstructive about a one-line fix, you *also* don't actually understand the general concept of what is expected of KVM, which this Documentation patch is intending to clarify. It was *right* to bump the IIDR from 1 to 2 when this guest visible behaviour was changed. The only problem was not letting userspace select the old revision. I'm really concerned that we now appear to have a regression of understanding of even the part we previously *did* get right. > If this matters to you so deeply then please, be part of the solution > instead. You may find that reviewing patches leads to better outcomes > than getting belligerent with the arm64 folks every time you guys > decide to rebase your kernel. Hell, hypotheticals actually have a lot > more weight in the context of a review. And if your testing is extensive > enough to catch these sort of subtleties, don't you think it's better > done against mainline? Yes. Definitely. That's why my series with the fixes is more *test* than actual fix, giving a nice simple framework for any such changes in future. It checks that GICR_CTLR_IR|GICR_CTLR_CES are visible only with IIDR.rev=3D3 for example. And we're making progress on the amount of downstream crap, but it doesn't help when we seem to have an impedance mismatch on the very question of what it means to support customers on KVM at scale. This thread is not exactly encouraging my engineers to poke their heads above the parapet. > Maybe it's just me but I am left feeling disappointed that we all > haven't found a productive way of working together. I've tried to bridge > the gap here; we obviously need to do something that at least fixes the > UAPI breakage. Although apparently we don't even care to meet that low > of bar. >=20 > > A stable and mature platform doesn't get to play in its ivory tower and > > randomly inflict breakage on guests because they "deserve it". >=20 > Really? Aren't you asking for us to emulate something completely broken > for you? No. I'm asking for a path to be able to *fix* it. As things stand, if I just drop these patches and launch guests on a new kernel, those guests will see writable IGROUPR registers and may try to use them. And then if I have to roll *back* a kernel deployment, those guests may lose interrupts. The *only* time a guest-visible feature (or bugfix, nobody cares about the difference outside the ivory tower) can be enabled is when the kernel deployment is finished and stable and *won't* be rolled back. And *then* new launches (and reboots) can get it. And one day, when the last guest which was launched *without* it is finally rebooted and sees the new model, *then* maybe we no longer need that one line if() statement to support IIDR version 1. 2018 was basically *yesterday*. And I'm kind of scared that I even have to explain it. --=-rM3SP4T0Vb419/7oTOIv Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCD9Aw ggSOMIIDdqADAgECAhAOmiw0ECVD4cWj5DqVrT9PMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMGUxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxEaWdpQ2VydCBJbmMxGTAXBgNVBAsTEHd3dy5kaWdpY2VydC5jb20xJDAi BgNVBAMTG0RpZ2lDZXJ0IEFzc3VyZWQgSUQgUm9vdCBDQTAeFw0yNDAxMzAwMDAwMDBaFw0zMTEx MDkyMzU5NTlaMEExCzAJBgNVBAYTAkFVMRAwDgYDVQQKEwdWZXJva2V5MSAwHgYDVQQDExdWZXJv a2V5IFNlY3VyZSBFbWFpbCBHMjCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAMjvgLKj jfhCFqxYyRiW8g3cNFAvltDbK5AzcOaR7yVzVGadr4YcCVxjKrEJOgi7WEOH8rUgCNB5cTD8N/Et GfZI+LGqSv0YtNa54T9D1AWJy08ZKkWvfGGIXN9UFAPMJ6OLLH/UUEgFa+7KlrEvMUupDFGnnR06 aDJAwtycb8yXtILj+TvfhLFhafxroXrflspavejQkEiHjNjtHnwbZ+o43g0/yxjwnarGI3kgcak7 nnI9/8Lqpq79tLHYwLajotwLiGTB71AGN5xK+tzB+D4eN9lXayrjcszgbOv2ZCgzExQUAIt98mre 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