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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 686028d743dd20ff6402fe24e5d0e2d9; Sat, 02 Dec 2023 00:17:46 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <876cdd6b-6082-4503-b2fe-3bb11c30965a@schaufler-ca.com> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 16:17:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCH v5 23/23] integrity: Switch from rbtree to LSM-managed blob for integrity_iint_cache Content-Language: en-US To: "Dr. Greg" Cc: Roberto Sassu , Paul Moore , viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk, brauner@kernel.org, chuck.lever@oracle.com, jlayton@kernel.org, neilb@suse.de, kolga@netapp.com, Dai.Ngo@oracle.com, tom@talpey.com, jmorris@namei.org, serge@hallyn.com, zohar@linux.ibm.com, dmitry.kasatkin@gmail.com, dhowells@redhat.com, jarkko@kernel.org, stephen.smalley.work@gmail.com, eparis@parisplace.org, mic@digikod.net, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-nfs@vger.kernel.org, linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org, linux-integrity@vger.kernel.org, keyrings@vger.kernel.org, selinux@vger.kernel.org, Roberto Sassu , Casey Schaufler References: <20231107134012.682009-24-roberto.sassu@huaweicloud.com> <17befa132379d37977fc854a8af25f6d.paul@paul-moore.com> <2084adba3c27a606cbc5ed7b3214f61427a829dd.camel@huaweicloud.com> <90eb8e9d-c63e-42d6-b951-f856f31590db@huaweicloud.com> <20231201010549.GA8923@wind.enjellic.com> <660e8516-ec1b-41b4-9e04-2b9fabbe59ca@schaufler-ca.com> <20231201235332.GA19345@wind.enjellic.com> From: Casey Schaufler In-Reply-To: <20231201235332.GA19345@wind.enjellic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21896 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On 12/1/2023 3:53 PM, Dr. Greg wrote: > On Fri, Dec 01, 2023 at 10:54:54AM -0800, Casey Schaufler wrote: > > Good evening Casey, thanks for taking the time to respond. > >> On 11/30/2023 5:05 PM, Dr. Greg wrote: >>> A suggestion has been made in this thread that there needs to be broad >>> thinking on this issue, and by extension, other tough problems. On >>> that note, we would be interested in any thoughts regarding the notion >>> of a long term solution for this issue being the migration of EVM to a >>> BPF based implementation? >>> >>> There appears to be consensus that the BPF LSM will always go last, a >>> BPF implementation would seem to address the EVM ordering issue. >>> >>> In a larger context, there have been suggestions in other LSM threads >>> that BPF is the future for doing LSM's. Coincident with that has come >>> some disagreement about whether or not BPF embodies sufficient >>> functionality for this role. >>> >>> The EVM codebase is reasonably modest with a very limited footprint of >>> hooks that it handles. A BPF implementation on this scale would seem >>> to go a long ways in placing BPF sufficiency concerns to rest. >>> >>> Thoughts/issues? >> Converting EVM to BPF looks like a 5 to 10 year process. Creating a >> EVM design description to work from, building all the support functions >> required, then getting sufficient reviews and testing isn't going to be >> a walk in the park. That leaves out the issue of distribution of the >> EVM-BPF programs. Consider how the rush to convert kernel internals to >> Rust is progressing. EVM isn't huge, but it isn't trivial, either. Tetsuo >> had a good hard look at converting TOMOYO to BPF, and concluded that it >> wasn't practical. TOMOYO is considerably less complicated than EVM. > Interesting, thanks for the reflections. > > On a functional line basis, EVM is 14% of the TOMOYO codebase, not > counting the IMA code. For EVM to be completely converted to BPF you'll need significant, but as yet undiscovered, changes in IMA and, most likely, the LSM infrastructure. > Given your observations, one would than presume around a decade of > development effort to deliver a full featured LSM, ie. SELINUX, SMACK, > APPARMOR, TOMOYO in BPF form. That's not quite true. A new, from scratch LSM implementing something like SELinux, Smack or AppArmor would take considerably less time. Converting an existing LSM and being "bug compatible" is going to be painful. > Very useful information, we can now return the thread to what appears > is going to be the vexing implementation of: > > lsm_set_order(LSM_ORDER_FU_I_REALLY_AM_GOING_TO_BE_THE_LAST_ONE_TO_RUN); Just so. > > :-) > > Have a good weekend. > > As always, > Dr. Greg > > The Quixote Project - Flailing at the Travails of Cybersecurity >