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(p200300d82f4e3200c99da38b3f3ad4b3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [2003:d8:2f4e:3200:c99d:a38b:3f3a:d4b3]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-429898adda1sm7943559f8f.29.2025.10.24.00.43.26 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 24 Oct 2025 00:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9c1450ba-ade4-4236-8d3e-c5658a3a26c3@redhat.com> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2025 09:43:25 +0200 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [RFC, PATCH 0/2] Large folios vs. SIGBUS semantics To: Dave Chinner , Andreas Dilger Cc: Kiryl Shutsemau , Andrew Morton , Hugh Dickins , Matthew Wilcox , Alexander Viro , Christian Brauner , Lorenzo Stoakes , "Liam R. Howlett" , Vlastimil Babka , Mike Rapoport , Suren Baghdasaryan , Michal Hocko , Rik van Riel , Harry Yoo , Johannes Weiner , Shakeel Butt , Baolin Wang , "Darrick J. Wong" , linux-mm , linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org References: <20251020163054.1063646-1-kirill@shutemov.name> From: David Hildenbrand Content-Language: en-US Autocrypt: addr=david@redhat.com; keydata= xsFNBFXLn5EBEAC+zYvAFJxCBY9Tr1xZgcESmxVNI/0ffzE/ZQOiHJl6mGkmA1R7/uUpiCjJ dBrn+lhhOYjjNefFQou6478faXE6o2AhmebqT4KiQoUQFV4R7y1KMEKoSyy8hQaK1umALTdL QZLQMzNE74ap+GDK0wnacPQFpcG1AE9RMq3aeErY5tujekBS32jfC/7AnH7I0v1v1TbbK3Gp XNeiN4QroO+5qaSr0ID2sz5jtBLRb15RMre27E1ImpaIv2Jw8NJgW0k/D1RyKCwaTsgRdwuK Kx/Y91XuSBdz0uOyU/S8kM1+ag0wvsGlpBVxRR/xw/E8M7TEwuCZQArqqTCmkG6HGcXFT0V9 PXFNNgV5jXMQRwU0O/ztJIQqsE5LsUomE//bLwzj9IVsaQpKDqW6TAPjcdBDPLHvriq7kGjt WhVhdl0qEYB8lkBEU7V2Yb+SYhmhpDrti9Fq1EsmhiHSkxJcGREoMK/63r9WLZYI3+4W2rAc UucZa4OT27U5ZISjNg3Ev0rxU5UH2/pT4wJCfxwocmqaRr6UYmrtZmND89X0KigoFD/XSeVv jwBRNjPAubK9/k5NoRrYqztM9W6sJqrH8+UWZ1Idd/DdmogJh0gNC0+N42Za9yBRURfIdKSb B3JfpUqcWwE7vUaYrHG1nw54pLUoPG6sAA7Mehl3nd4pZUALHwARAQABzSREYXZpZCBIaWxk ZW5icmFuZCA8ZGF2aWRAcmVkaGF0LmNvbT7CwZoEEwEIAEQCGwMCF4ACGQEFCwkIBwICIgIG FQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgcWIQQb2cqtc1xMOkYN/MpN3hD3AP+DWgUCaJzangUJJlgIpAAKCRBN 3hD3AP+DWhAxD/9wcL0A+2rtaAmutaKTfxhTP0b4AAp1r/eLxjrbfbCCmh4pqzBhmSX/4z11 opn2KqcOsueRF1t2ENLOWzQu3Roiny2HOU7DajqB4dm1BVMaXQya5ae2ghzlJN9SIoopTWlR 0Af3hPj5E2PYvQhlcqeoehKlBo9rROJv/rjmr2x0yOM8qeTroH/ZzNlCtJ56AsE6Tvl+r7cW 3x7/Jq5WvWeudKrhFh7/yQ7eRvHCjd9bBrZTlgAfiHmX9AnCCPRPpNGNedV9Yty2Jnxhfmbv Pw37LA/jef8zlCDyUh2KCU1xVEOWqg15o1RtTyGV1nXV2O/mfuQJud5vIgzBvHhypc3p6VZJ lEf8YmT+Ol5P7SfCs5/uGdWUYQEMqOlg6w9R4Pe8d+mk8KGvfE9/zTwGg0nRgKqlQXrWRERv cuEwQbridlPAoQHrFWtwpgYMXx2TaZ3sihcIPo9uU5eBs0rf4mOERY75SK+Ekayv2ucTfjxr Kf014py2aoRJHuvy85ee/zIyLmve5hngZTTe3Wg3TInT9UTFzTPhItam6dZ1xqdTGHZYGU0O otRHcwLGt470grdiob6PfVTXoHlBvkWRadMhSuG4RORCDpq89vu5QralFNIf3EysNohoFy2A LYg2/D53xbU/aa4DDzBb5b1Rkg/udO1gZocVQWrDh6I2K3+cCs7BTQRVy5+RARAA59fefSDR 9nMGCb9LbMX+TFAoIQo/wgP5XPyzLYakO+94GrgfZjfhdaxPXMsl2+o8jhp/hlIzG56taNdt VZtPp3ih1AgbR8rHgXw1xwOpuAd5lE1qNd54ndHuADO9a9A0vPimIes78Hi1/yy+ZEEvRkHk /kDa6F3AtTc1m4rbbOk2fiKzzsE9YXweFjQvl9p+AMw6qd/iC4lUk9g0+FQXNdRs+o4o6Qvy iOQJfGQ4UcBuOy1IrkJrd8qq5jet1fcM2j4QvsW8CLDWZS1L7kZ5gT5EycMKxUWb8LuRjxzZ 3QY1aQH2kkzn6acigU3HLtgFyV1gBNV44ehjgvJpRY2cC8VhanTx0dZ9mj1YKIky5N+C0f21 zvntBqcxV0+3p8MrxRRcgEtDZNav+xAoT3G0W4SahAaUTWXpsZoOecwtxi74CyneQNPTDjNg azHmvpdBVEfj7k3p4dmJp5i0U66Onmf6mMFpArvBRSMOKU9DlAzMi4IvhiNWjKVaIE2Se9BY FdKVAJaZq85P2y20ZBd08ILnKcj7XKZkLU5FkoA0udEBvQ0f9QLNyyy3DZMCQWcwRuj1m73D sq8DEFBdZ5eEkj1dCyx+t/ga6x2rHyc8Sl86oK1tvAkwBNsfKou3v+jP/l14a7DGBvrmlYjO 59o3t6inu6H7pt7OL6u6BQj7DoMAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJgIbDBYhBBvZyq1zXEw6Rg38yk3e EPcA/4NaBQJonNqrBQkmWAihAAoJEE3eEPcA/4NaKtMQALAJ8PzprBEXbXcEXwDKQu+P/vts IfUb1UNMfMV76BicGa5NCZnJNQASDP/+bFg6O3gx5NbhHHPeaWz/VxlOmYHokHodOvtL0WCC 8A5PEP8tOk6029Z+J+xUcMrJClNVFpzVvOpb1lCbhjwAV465Hy+NUSbbUiRxdzNQtLtgZzOV Zw7jxUCs4UUZLQTCuBpFgb15bBxYZ/BL9MbzxPxvfUQIPbnzQMcqtpUs21CMK2PdfCh5c4gS sDci6D5/ZIBw94UQWmGpM/O1ilGXde2ZzzGYl64glmccD8e87OnEgKnH3FbnJnT4iJchtSvx yJNi1+t0+qDti4m88+/9IuPqCKb6Stl+s2dnLtJNrjXBGJtsQG/sRpqsJz5x1/2nPJSRMsx9 5YfqbdrJSOFXDzZ8/r82HgQEtUvlSXNaXCa95ez0UkOG7+bDm2b3s0XahBQeLVCH0mw3RAQg r7xDAYKIrAwfHHmMTnBQDPJwVqxJjVNr7yBic4yfzVWGCGNE4DnOW0vcIeoyhy9vnIa3w1uZ 3iyY2Nsd7JxfKu1PRhCGwXzRw5TlfEsoRI7V9A8isUCoqE2Dzh3FvYHVeX4Us+bRL/oqareJ CIFqgYMyvHj7Q06kTKmauOe4Nf0l0qEkIuIzfoLJ3qr5UyXc2hLtWyT9Ir+lYlX9efqh7mOY qIws/H2t In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 24.10.25 08:50, Dave Chinner wrote: > On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 09:48:58AM -0600, Andreas Dilger wrote: >>> On Oct 23, 2025, at 5:38 AM, Dave Chinner wrote: >>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2025 at 07:16:26AM +0100, Kiryl Shutsemau wrote: >>>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2025 at 10:28:02AM +1100, Dave Chinner wrote: >>>>> In critical paths like truncate, correctness and safety come first. >>>>> Performance is only a secondary consideration. The overlap of >>>>> mmap() and truncate() is an area where we have had many, many bugs >>>>> and, at minimum, the current POSIX behaviour largely shields us from >>>>> serious stale data exposure events when those bugs (inevitably) >>>>> occur. >>>> >>>> How do you prevent writes via GUP racing with truncate()? >>>> >>>> Something like this: >>>> >>>> CPU0 CPU1 >>>> fd = open("file") >>>> p = mmap(fd) >>>> whatever_syscall(p) >>>> get_user_pages(p, &page) >>>> truncate("file"); >>>> >>>> put_page(page); >>> >>> Forget about truncate, go look at the comment above >>> writable_file_mapping_allowed() about using GUP this way. >>> >>> i.e. file-backed mmap/GUP is a known broken anti-pattern. We've >>> spent the past 15+ years telling people that it is unfixably broken >>> and they will crash their kernel or corrupt there data if they do >>> this. >>> >>> This is not supported functionality because real world production >>> use ends up exposing problems with sync and background writeback >>> races, truncate races, fallocate() races, writes into holes, writes >>> into preallocated regions, writes over shared extents that require >>> copy-on-write, etc, etc, ad nausiem. >>> >>> If anyone is using filebacked mappings like this, then when it >>> breaks they get to keep all the broken pieces to themselves. >> >> Should ftruncate("file") return ETXTBUSY in this case, so that users >> and applications know this doesn't work/isn't safe? > > No, it is better to block waiting for the GUP to release the > reference (see below), but the general problem is that we cannot > reliably discriminate GUP references from other page cache based > references just by looking at the folio resident in the page cache. Right. folio_maybe_dma_pinned() can have false positives for small folios, but also temporarily for large folios (speculative pins from GUP-fast). In the future it might get more reliable at least for small folios when we are able to have a dedicated pincount. (there is still the issue that some mechanisms that should be using pin_user_pages() are still using get_user_pages()) > > However, when FSDAX is being used, trucate does, in fact, block > waiting for GUP references to be release. fsdax does not use page > references to track in use pages - the filesystem metadata tracks > allocated and free pages, not the mm/ subsystem. There are no > page cache references to the pages, because there is no page > cache. Hence we can use the difference between the map count and the > reference count to determine if there are any references we cannot > forcibly unmap (e.g. GUP) just by looking at the backing store folio > state. We can do the same for other folios as well. See folio_expected_ref_count(). Unexpected references can be from GUP, lru caches or other temporary ones from page migration etc. As we document for folio_expected_ref_count() it's racy for mapped folios, though: "Calling this function on a mapped folio will not result in a stable result, because nothing stops additional page table mappings from coming (e.g.,fork()) or going (e.g., munmap())." It only works reliably on unmapped folios when holding the folio lock. -- Cheers David / dhildenb