From: Kyle Moffett <mrmacman_g4@mac.com>
To: Andreas Dilger <adilger@clusterfs.com>
Cc: Evgeniy Polyakov <johnpol@2ka.mipt.ru>,
Jeff Garzik <jeff@garzik.org>,
netdev@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Distributed storage. Move away from char device ioctls.
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 03:07:11 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <AC64AEB4-4090-4E73-A53C-2ACF94B49AD5@mac.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20070915172446.GC2990@schatzie.adilger.int>
On Sep 15, 2007, at 13:24:46, Andreas Dilger wrote:
> On Sep 15, 2007 16:29 +0400, Evgeniy Polyakov wrote:
>> Yes, block device itself is not able to scale well, but it is the
>> place for redundancy, since filesystem will just fail if
>> underlying device does not work correctly and FS actually does not
>> know about where it should place redundancy bits - it might happen
>> to be the same broken disk, so I created a low-level device which
>> distribute requests itself.
>
> I actually think there is a place for this - and improvements are
> definitely welcome. Even Lustre needs block-device level
> redundancy currently, though we will be working to make Lustre-
> level redundancy available in the future (the problem is WAY harder
> than it seems at first glance, if you allow writeback caches at the
> clients and servers).
I really think that to get proper non-block-device-level filesystem
redundancy you need to base it on something similar to the GIT
model. Data replication is done in specific-sized chunks indexed by
SHA-1 sum and you actually have a sort of "merge algorithm" for when
local and remote changes differ. The OS would only implement a very
limited list of merge algorithms, IE one of:
(A) Don't merge, each client gets its own branch and merges are manual
(B) Most recent changed version is made the master every X-seconds/
open/close/write/other-event.
(C) The tree at X (usually a particular client/server) is always
used as the master when there are conflicts.
This lets you implement whatever replication policy you want: You
can require that some files are replicated (cached) on *EVERY*
system, you can require that other files are cached on at least X
systems. You can say "this needs to be replicated on at least X% of
the online systems, or at most Y". Moreover, the replication could
be done pretty easily from userspace via a couple syscalls. You also
automatically keep track of history with some default purge policy.
The main point is that for efficiency and speed things are *not*
always replicated; this also allows for offline operation. You would
of course have "userspace" merge drivers which notice that the tree
on your laptop is not a subset/superset of the tree on your desktop
and do various merges based on per-file metadata. My address-book,
for example, would have a custom little merge program which knows
about how to merge changes between two address book files, asking me
useful questions along the way. Since a lot of this merging is
mechanical, some of the code from GIT could easily be made into a
"merge library" which knows how to do such things.
Moreover, this would allow me to have a "shared" root filesystem on
my laptop and desktop. It would have 'sub-project'-type trees, so
that "/" would be an independent branch on each system. "/etc" would
be separate branches but manually merged git-style as I make
changes. "/home/*" folders would be auto-created as separate
subtrees so each user can version their own individually. Specific
subfolders (like address-book, email, etc) would be adjusted by the
GUI programs that manage them to be separate subtrees with manual-
merging controlled by that GUI program.
Backups/dumps/archival of such a system would be easy. You would
just need to clone the significant commits/trees/etc to a DVD and
replace the old SHA-1-indexed objects to tiny "object-deleted" stubs;
to rollback to an archived version you insert the DVD, "mount" it
into the existing kernel SHA-1 index, and then mount the appropriate
commit as a read-only volume somewhere to access. The same procedure
would also work for wide-area-network backups and such.
The effective result would be the ability to do things like the
following:
(A) Have my homedir synced between both systems mostly-
automatically as I make changes to different files on both systems
(B) Easily have 2 copies of all my files, so if one system's disk
goes kaput I can just re-clone from the other.
(C) Keep archived copies of the last 5 years worth of work,
including change history, on a stack of DVDs.
(D) Synchronize work between locations over a relatively slow
link without much work.
As long as files were indirectly indexed by sub-block SHA1 (with the
index depth based on the size of the file), and each individually-
SHA1-ed object could have references, you could trivially have a 4TB-
sized file where you modify 4 bytes at a thousand random locations
throughout the file and only have to update about 5MB worth of on-
disk data. The actual overhead for that kind of operation under any
existing filesystem would be 100% seek-dominated regardless whereas
with this mechanism you would not directly be overwriting data and so
you could append all the updates as a single 5MB chunk. Data reads
would be much more seek-y, but you could trivially have an on-line
defragmenter tool which notices fragmented commonly-accessed inode
objects and creates non-fragmented copies before deleting the old ones.
There's a lot of other technical details which would need resolution
in an actual implementation, but this is enough of a summary to give
you the gist of the concept. Most likely there will be some major
flaw which makes it impossible to produce reliably, but the concept
contains the things I would be interested in for a real "networked
filesystem".
Cheers,
Kyle Moffett
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2007-09-16 7:07 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 21+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2007-09-14 18:54 Evgeniy Polyakov
2007-09-14 19:07 ` Jeff Garzik
2007-09-14 20:46 ` Al Boldi
2007-09-14 21:12 ` J. Bruce Fields
2007-09-14 21:14 ` Jeff Garzik
2007-09-14 21:18 ` J. Bruce Fields
2007-09-14 22:32 ` Jeff Garzik
2007-09-14 22:42 ` J. Bruce Fields
2007-09-15 4:08 ` Jeff Garzik
2007-09-15 4:40 ` J. Bruce Fields
2007-09-15 2:54 ` Mike Snitzer
2007-09-15 12:34 ` Evgeniy Polyakov
2007-09-15 12:29 ` Evgeniy Polyakov
2007-09-15 17:24 ` Andreas Dilger
2007-09-16 7:07 ` Kyle Moffett [this message]
2007-10-26 10:44 ` Evgeniy Polyakov
2007-09-16 13:43 ` Evgeniy Polyakov
2007-09-15 13:56 ` Robin Humble
2007-09-15 14:35 ` Jeff Garzik
2007-09-15 16:20 ` Robin Humble
2007-09-15 17:51 ` Andreas Dilger
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=AC64AEB4-4090-4E73-A53C-2ACF94B49AD5@mac.com \
--to=mrmacman_g4@mac.com \
--cc=adilger@clusterfs.com \
--cc=jeff@garzik.org \
--cc=johnpol@2ka.mipt.ru \
--cc=linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org \
--cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
--cc=netdev@vger.kernel.org \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox
all inboxes | Powered by JetHome®