From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail.zytor.com (terminus.zytor.com [198.137.202.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40A624A3C; Thu, 1 May 2025 04:51:55 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=198.137.202.136 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1746075118; cv=none; b=BLHQNUYPQeq/4R03dZMh71kpyEATIajqnzCyyfOc437Y+Spc11Q717vP3sH6IGiDHE61aTdndaYr5xZDw9TLFySZ3m0tJxDaVC+5l1EwcIkj/XmuWLMGF4FVJx6PaZJcRQrSq+Cl5c2CmRypPZ9KMT+fNQvVGNA9/afdgimLKMw= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1746075118; c=relaxed/simple; bh=716ukKB5M5rS+p/pdm3qtUxpHkVGWowLi7wobQnuVEg=; h=Date:From:To:CC:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=TlzUFvIAxUcpCOphvfLRClPGZk72VlHMBvom8ymqC4Jzjh3H28GAe1lNdQ8ts9l8begYlr3DCk3ai6Vkt8auiiwJ/fcX4KoBzwDUo8j5i6wkBwkvQ45BnjGGpzs2Hp/21qAUOih12KET9RNyU4rrCPzJ3k+/Vh/Bpjo5A+NxKGU= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=zytor.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=zytor.com; dkim=fail (2048-bit key) header.d=zytor.com header.i=@zytor.com header.b=L9wt7WDk reason="signature verification failed"; arc=none smtp.client-ip=198.137.202.136 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=zytor.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=zytor.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key) header.d=zytor.com header.i=@zytor.com header.b="L9wt7WDk" Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([76.133.66.138]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.zytor.com (8.18.1/8.17.1) with ESMTPSA id 5414plu31230948 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 30 Apr 2025 21:51:47 -0700 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 mail.zytor.com 5414plu31230948 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zytor.com; s=2025042001; t=1746075108; bh=gsD4ysvzga/lVrqP4m3K9wqrBkKkMcJz5LBHqTbst5w=; h=Date:From:To:CC:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=L9wt7WDkb4do8JzuGpigt4bvka29pgARFSF0wLiOSkPOURXG6n3Gupfnif8Y6KWIX W5n4wM9srHTLLerDmaSggYBYUnvuPgsthiflC1tmr86Wdmx5VY27zWSs+g0/5ko0Td cJtUyPzaPEmIdoWFxq+fFTPT964dQiQXTNeuvFdJqThoIVPOQmwEfInNFz8Q37vLdW ATY4z4yW9bu3Lg7VToen51qgBzyJOx8ZYXGNI2Vw4o2NRGes28SYOKHooGd6hdOR1o Sp63PeKT3xBzXbU6zZ+inIiJMxNkyVYEpWXGrTl+LI9LlJMXLcFFh+r50kFps+OZo8 dki/TH0/7SRaQ== Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2025 21:51:47 -0700 From: "H. Peter Anvin" To: Linus Torvalds CC: "Theodore Ts'o" , Kent Overstreet , linux-bcachefs@vger.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: [GIT PULL] bcachefs fixes for 6.15-rc4 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <20250425195910.GA1018738@mit.edu> Message-ID: Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On April 30, 2025 8:12:20 PM PDT, Linus Torvalds wrote: >On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 at 19:48, H=2E Peter Anvin wrote: >> >> It is worth noting that Microsoft has basically declared their >> "recommended" case folding (upcase) table to be permanently frozen (for >> new filesystem instances in the case where they use an on-disk >> translation table created at format time=2E) As far as I know they hav= e >> never supported anything other than 1:1 conversion of BMP code points, >> nor normalization=2E > >So no crazy '=C3=9F' matches 'ss' kind of thing? (And yes, afaik that's >technically wrong even in German, but afaik at least sorts the same in >some locales)=2E > >Because yes, if MS basically does a 1:1 unicode translation with a >fixed table, that is not only "simpler", I think it's what we should >strive for=2E > >Because I think the *only* valid reason for case insensitive >filesystems is "backwards compatibility", and given that, it's >_particularly_ stupid to then do anything more complicated and broken >than the thing you're trying to be compatible with=2E > >I hope to everything holy that nobody ever wants to be compatible with >the absolute garbage that is the OSX HFS model=2E > >Because the whole "let's actively corrupt names into something that is >almost, but not exactly, NFD" stuff is just some next-level evil >stuff=2E > > Linus > Yeah, collation order is highly localized, and had never made the assumpti= on of being expected to be used as a unique lookup key=2E It's also completely inconsistent, even between neighboring locales, like = how in Swedish and Finnish =C3=85 sorts before =C3=84/=C3=86 and =C3=96/=C3= =98 whereas as Danish and Norwegian sort =C3=85 after; even though everyone= agrees =C3=84/=C3=86 and =C3=96/=C3=98 are the same letter and are to be s= orted the same=2E Icelandic doesn't have =C3=85 but sorts it as Danish afte= r =C3=84 and =C3=98(!) but stuffs =C3=9E after Z instead of with or after T= =2E Swedish, and I believe the other Nordic languages, sort =C3=9C as Y, bu= t in German =C3=84, =C3=96, and =C3=9C are sorted as A, O and U=2E