From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mgamail.intel.com (mgamail.intel.com [192.198.163.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A494B60DE5; Wed, 14 Feb 2024 18:43:01 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=192.198.163.17 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1707936183; cv=none; b=hgu/DS7HNpgGN31nluJSbOWippYyg8Skdxxo0h14ZrwCDMuITWCmH4tT12HhiU3jfTnHjtTpnLOYcYnoDqbLYKP2I4tr0hNV9jU5MP+ySju7hlVCwxUB6xuV0P6JBQE4opF813/8Da9M5LIAknDormoPxDZFPHf91ffSZDjyVYM= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1707936183; c=relaxed/simple; bh=Zz8tGiuSRl52zq+J1niIT8rlU8Dn5Twy3t1J2GVwbp4=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Subject:To:Cc:References:From: In-Reply-To:Content-Type; b=D53LXdFPiPa1F/rDa5VxEmbUiI3cOkSXiwzUyMK/itbzypPMBjuFnJNTietMgq2RrpHbRTjR7DDeD7JysvhUAWmFJRbkPc9qIoUhmvnEPQeuscOai6L/I5B640YMN2ZPvv0n8Z2Rm/efiIedVc2RJXzxdOURmUzi8sL23JIVqBg= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=intel.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=intel.com; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=intel.com header.i=@intel.com header.b=PmVBVKs6; arc=none smtp.client-ip=192.198.163.17 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=intel.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=intel.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=intel.com header.i=@intel.com header.b="PmVBVKs6" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=intel.com; i=@intel.com; q=dns/txt; s=Intel; t=1707936181; x=1739472181; h=message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references: from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Zz8tGiuSRl52zq+J1niIT8rlU8Dn5Twy3t1J2GVwbp4=; b=PmVBVKs6W6tUVzcR4pL4UvjOv9ElCLTmDUz23xACU+S+Pq32pAhVXky5 3nu11ybiNBwzj2T9uApIQQ/Sy8ISIs0WgxhRfH6yBD8WuvqW7tAQN1FZ7 NbiiOqhpxaHbKHLyVge3H21NGnTQB4TBi0ZY1YXrypcrIQn8qzSSm90AN tDI78ECGD59N+iVDCx48eE2oj2QgOcv5Zr/SE0rwYR/fIF6CnG2R7UnOO 4eEiYL5g61RPwwEK8F0bLpygpdot1RllB62UngeyX/X0GGOQKCQz4SbBp Hr/Hd7frR/63yxKUMmURuwmnO/wNzLzxs2qlbmOWefdFcEo1VZx+O3g0m A==; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="6600,9927,10984"; a="1873737" X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="6.06,160,1705392000"; d="scan'208";a="1873737" Received: from fmviesa006.fm.intel.com ([10.60.135.146]) by fmvoesa111.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Feb 2024 10:43:00 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="6.06,160,1705392000"; d="scan'208";a="3560059" Received: from lshoer-mobl1.amr.corp.intel.com (HELO [10.209.111.90]) ([10.209.111.90]) by fmviesa006-auth.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Feb 2024 10:42:58 -0800 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2024 10:42:57 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCH v1 0/8] x86_64 SandBox Mode arch hooks Content-Language: en-US To: =?UTF-8?B?UGV0ciBUZXNhxZnDrWs=?= Cc: Petr Tesarik , Jonathan Corbet , Thomas Gleixner , Ingo Molnar , Borislav Petkov , Dave Hansen , "maintainer:X86 ARCHITECTURE (32-BIT AND 64-BIT)" , "H. Peter Anvin" , Andy Lutomirski , Oleg Nesterov , Peter Zijlstra , Xin Li , Arnd Bergmann , Andrew Morton , Rick Edgecombe , Kees Cook , "Masami Hiramatsu (Google)" , Pengfei Xu , Josh Poimboeuf , Ze Gao , "Kirill A. Shutemov" , Kai Huang , David Woodhouse , Brian Gerst , Jason Gunthorpe , Joerg Roedel , "Mike Rapoport (IBM)" , Tina Zhang , Jacob Pan , "open list:DOCUMENTATION" , open list , Roberto Sassu , Petr Tesarik References: <20240214113516.2307-1-petrtesarik@huaweicloud.com> <20240214192214.78734652@meshulam.tesarici.cz> From: Dave Hansen Autocrypt: addr=dave.hansen@intel.com; keydata= xsFNBE6HMP0BEADIMA3XYkQfF3dwHlj58Yjsc4E5y5G67cfbt8dvaUq2fx1lR0K9h1bOI6fC oAiUXvGAOxPDsB/P6UEOISPpLl5IuYsSwAeZGkdQ5g6m1xq7AlDJQZddhr/1DC/nMVa/2BoY 2UnKuZuSBu7lgOE193+7Uks3416N2hTkyKUSNkduyoZ9F5twiBhxPJwPtn/wnch6n5RsoXsb ygOEDxLEsSk/7eyFycjE+btUtAWZtx+HseyaGfqkZK0Z9bT1lsaHecmB203xShwCPT49Blxz VOab8668QpaEOdLGhtvrVYVK7x4skyT3nGWcgDCl5/Vp3TWA4K+IofwvXzX2ON/Mj7aQwf5W iC+3nWC7q0uxKwwsddJ0Nu+dpA/UORQWa1NiAftEoSpk5+nUUi0WE+5DRm0H+TXKBWMGNCFn c6+EKg5zQaa8KqymHcOrSXNPmzJuXvDQ8uj2J8XuzCZfK4uy1+YdIr0yyEMI7mdh4KX50LO1 pmowEqDh7dLShTOif/7UtQYrzYq9cPnjU2ZW4qd5Qz2joSGTG9eCXLz5PRe5SqHxv6ljk8mb ApNuY7bOXO/A7T2j5RwXIlcmssqIjBcxsRRoIbpCwWWGjkYjzYCjgsNFL6rt4OL11OUF37wL QcTl7fbCGv53KfKPdYD5hcbguLKi/aCccJK18ZwNjFhqr4MliQARAQABzUVEYXZpZCBDaHJp c3RvcGhlciBIYW5zZW4gKEludGVsIFdvcmsgQWRkcmVzcykgPGRhdmUuaGFuc2VuQGludGVs LmNvbT7CwXgEEwECACIFAlQ+9J0CGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEGg1 lTBwyZKwLZUP/0dnbhDc229u2u6WtK1s1cSd9WsflGXGagkR6liJ4um3XCfYWDHvIdkHYC1t MNcVHFBwmQkawxsYvgO8kXT3SaFZe4ISfB4K4CL2qp4JO+nJdlFUbZI7cz/Td9z8nHjMcWYF IQuTsWOLs/LBMTs+ANumibtw6UkiGVD3dfHJAOPNApjVr+M0P/lVmTeP8w0uVcd2syiaU5jB aht9CYATn+ytFGWZnBEEQFnqcibIaOrmoBLu2b3fKJEd8Jp7NHDSIdrvrMjYynmc6sZKUqH2 I1qOevaa8jUg7wlLJAWGfIqnu85kkqrVOkbNbk4TPub7VOqA6qG5GCNEIv6ZY7HLYd/vAkVY E8Plzq/NwLAuOWxvGrOl7OPuwVeR4hBDfcrNb990MFPpjGgACzAZyjdmYoMu8j3/MAEW4P0z F5+EYJAOZ+z212y1pchNNauehORXgjrNKsZwxwKpPY9qb84E3O9KYpwfATsqOoQ6tTgr+1BR CCwP712H+E9U5HJ0iibN/CDZFVPL1bRerHziuwuQuvE0qWg0+0SChFe9oq0KAwEkVs6ZDMB2 P16MieEEQ6StQRlvy2YBv80L1TMl3T90Bo1UUn6ARXEpcbFE0/aORH/jEXcRteb+vuik5UGY 5TsyLYdPur3TXm7XDBdmmyQVJjnJKYK9AQxj95KlXLVO38lczsFNBFRjzmoBEACyAxbvUEhd GDGNg0JhDdezyTdN8C9BFsdxyTLnSH31NRiyp1QtuxvcqGZjb2trDVuCbIzRrgMZLVgo3upr MIOx1CXEgmn23Zhh0EpdVHM8IKx9Z7V0r+rrpRWFE8/wQZngKYVi49PGoZj50ZEifEJ5qn/H Nsp2+Y+bTUjDdgWMATg9DiFMyv8fvoqgNsNyrrZTnSgoLzdxr89FGHZCoSoAK8gfgFHuO54B lI8QOfPDG9WDPJ66HCodjTlBEr/Cwq6GruxS5i2Y33YVqxvFvDa1tUtl+iJ2SWKS9kCai2DR 3BwVONJEYSDQaven/EHMlY1q8Vln3lGPsS11vSUK3QcNJjmrgYxH5KsVsf6PNRj9mp8Z1kIG qjRx08+nnyStWC0gZH6NrYyS9rpqH3j+hA2WcI7De51L4Rv9pFwzp161mvtc6eC/GxaiUGuH BNAVP0PY0fqvIC68p3rLIAW3f97uv4ce2RSQ7LbsPsimOeCo/5vgS6YQsj83E+AipPr09Caj 0hloj+hFoqiticNpmsxdWKoOsV0PftcQvBCCYuhKbZV9s5hjt9qn8CE86A5g5KqDf83Fxqm/ vXKgHNFHE5zgXGZnrmaf6resQzbvJHO0Fb0CcIohzrpPaL3YepcLDoCCgElGMGQjdCcSQ+Ci FCRl0Bvyj1YZUql+ZkptgGjikQARAQABwsFfBBgBAgAJBQJUY85qAhsMAAoJEGg1lTBwyZKw l4IQAIKHs/9po4spZDFyfDjunimEhVHqlUt7ggR1Hsl/tkvTSze8pI1P6dGp2XW6AnH1iayn yRcoyT0ZJ+Zmm4xAH1zqKjWplzqdb/dO28qk0bPso8+1oPO8oDhLm1+tY+cOvufXkBTm+whm +AyNTjaCRt6aSMnA/QHVGSJ8grrTJCoACVNhnXg/R0g90g8iV8Q+IBZyDkG0tBThaDdw1B2l asInUTeb9EiVfL/Zjdg5VWiF9LL7iS+9hTeVdR09vThQ/DhVbCNxVk+DtyBHsjOKifrVsYep WpRGBIAu3bK8eXtyvrw1igWTNs2wazJ71+0z2jMzbclKAyRHKU9JdN6Hkkgr2nPb561yjcB8 sIq1pFXKyO+nKy6SZYxOvHxCcjk2fkw6UmPU6/j/nQlj2lfOAgNVKuDLothIxzi8pndB8Jju KktE5HJqUUMXePkAYIxEQ0mMc8Po7tuXdejgPMwgP7x65xtfEqI0RuzbUioFltsp1jUaRwQZ MTsCeQDdjpgHsj+P2ZDeEKCbma4m6Ez/YWs4+zDm1X8uZDkZcfQlD9NldbKDJEXLIjYWo1PH hYepSffIWPyvBMBTW2W5FRjJ4vLRrJSUoEfJuPQ3vW9Y73foyo/qFoURHO48AinGPZ7PC7TF vUaNOTjKedrqHkaOcqB185ahG2had0xnFsDPlx5y In-Reply-To: <20240214192214.78734652@meshulam.tesarici.cz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/14/24 10:22, Petr Tesařík wrote: > Anyway, in the long term I would like to work on gradual decomposition > of the kernel into a core part and many self-contained components. > Sandbox mode is a useful tool to enforce isolation. I'd want to see at least a few examples of how this decomposition would work and how much of a burden it is on each site that deployed it. But I'm skeptical that this could ever work. Ring-0 execution really is special and it's _increasingly_ so. Think of LASS or SMAP or SMEP. We're even seeing hardware designers add hardware security defenses to ring-0 that are not applied to ring-3. In other words, ring-3 isn't just a deprivileged ring-0, it's more exposed to attacks. > I'd rather fail fast than maintain hundreds of patches in an > out-of-tree branch before submitting (and failing anyway). I don't see any remotely feasible path forward for this approach.