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[103.168.172.200]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 6a1803df08f44-8942e6c6610sm112900286d6.40.2026.01.20.12.52.48 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 20 Jan 2026 12:52:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from phl-compute-05.internal (phl-compute-05.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailfauth.phl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41E5F40068; Tue, 20 Jan 2026 15:52:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from phl-frontend-03 ([10.202.2.162]) by phl-compute-05.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 20 Jan 2026 15:52:47 -0500 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefgedrtddtgddugedugedvucetufdoteggodetrf dotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceu rghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujf gurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesthdtredttddtvdenucfhrhhomhepuehoqhhunhcu hfgvnhhguceosghoqhhunhdrfhgvnhhgsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeeftdevhfevteettdfgffeigfekieetudejgfdukeeihfffheehueevleffkeef vdenucffohhmrghinheplhhptgdrvghvvghnthhsnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd enucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepsghoqhhunhdomhgvshhmthhprghuthhhphgv rhhsohhnrghlihhthidqieelvdeghedtieegqddujeejkeehheehvddqsghoqhhunhdrfh gvnhhgpeepghhmrghilhdrtghomhesfhhigihmvgdrnhgrmhgvpdhnsggprhgtphhtthho pedvtddpmhhouggvpehsmhhtphhouhhtpdhrtghpthhtohepvghlvhgvrhesghhoohhglh gvrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepghgrrhihsehgrghrhihguhhordhnvghtpdhrtghpthht oheplhhinhhugidqkhgvrhhnvghlsehvghgvrhdrkhgvrhhnvghlrdhorhhgpdhrtghpth htoheprhhushhtqdhfohhrqdhlihhnuhigsehvghgvrhdrkhgvrhhnvghlrdhorhhgpdhr tghpthhtoheplhhinhhugidqfhhsuggvvhgvlhesvhhgvghrrdhkvghrnhgvlhdrohhrgh dprhgtphhtthhopehkrghsrghnqdguvghvsehgohhoghhlvghgrhhouhhpshdrtghomhdp rhgtphhtthhopeifihhllheskhgvrhhnvghlrdhorhhgpdhrtghpthhtohepphgvthgvrh iisehinhhfrhgruggvrggurdhorhhgpdhrtghpthhtohepmhgrrhhkrdhruhhtlhgrnhgu segrrhhmrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: iad51458e:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 20 Jan 2026 15:52:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2026 04:52:45 +0800 From: Boqun Feng To: Marco Elver Cc: Gary Guo , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, rust-for-linux@vger.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, kasan-dev@googlegroups.com, Will Deacon , Peter Zijlstra , Mark Rutland , Miguel Ojeda , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn?= Roy Baron , Benno Lossin , Andreas Hindborg , Alice Ryhl , Trevor Gross , Danilo Krummrich , Elle Rhumsaa , "Paul E. McKenney" , FUJITA Tomonori Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/2] rust: sync: atomic: Add atomic operation helpers over raw pointers Message-ID: References: <20260120115207.55318-1-boqun.feng@gmail.com> <20260120115207.55318-3-boqun.feng@gmail.com> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: On Tue, Jan 20, 2026 at 06:10:40PM +0100, Marco Elver wrote: > On Tue, 20 Jan 2026 at 17:47, Gary Guo wrote: > > [...] > > >> + > > >> +/// Atomic load over raw pointers. > > >> +/// > > >> +/// This function provides a short-cut of `Atomic::from_ptr().load(..)`, and can be used to work > > >> +/// with C side on synchronizations: > > >> +/// > > >> +/// - `atomic_load(.., Relaxed)` maps to `READ_ONCE()` when using for inter-thread communication. > > >> +/// - `atomic_load(.., Acquire)` maps to `smp_load_acquire()`. > > > > > > I'm late to the party and may have missed some discussion, but it might Thanks for bringing this up ;-) > > > want restating in the documentation and/or commit log: > > > > > > READ_ONCE is meant to be a dependency-ordering primitive, i.e. be more > > > like memory_order_consume than it is memory_order_relaxed. This has, to > > > the best of my knowledge, not changed; otherwise lots of kernel code > > > would be broken. Our C's atomic_long_read() is the same, that is it's like memory_order_consume instead memory_order_relaxed. > > > > On the Rust-side documentation we mentioned that `Relaxed` always preserve > > dependency ordering, so yes, it is closer to `consume` in the C11 model. > > Alright, I missed this. > Is this actually enforced, or like the C side's use of "volatile", > relies on luck? > I wouldn't call it luck ;-) but we rely on the same thing that C has: implementing by using READ_ONCE(). > > > It is known to be brittle [1]. So the recommendation > > > above is unsound; well, it's as unsound as implementing READ_ONCE with a > > > volatile load. > > > > Sorry, which part of this is unsound? You mean that the dependency ordering is > > actually lost when it's not supposed to be? Even so, it'll be only a problem on > > specific users that uses `Relaxed` to carry ordering? > > Correct. > > > Users that use `Relaxed` for things that don't require any ordering would still > > be fine? > > Yes. > > > > While Alice's series tried to expose READ_ONCE as-is to the Rust side > > > (via volatile), so that Rust inherits the exact same semantics (including > > > its implementation flaw), the recommendation above is doubling down on > > > the unsoundness by proposing Relaxed to map to READ_ONCE. > > > > > > [1] https://lpc.events/event/16/contributions/1174/attachments/1108/2121/Status%20Report%20-%20Broken%20Dependency%20Orderings%20in%20the%20Linux%20Kernel.pdf > > > > > > > I think this is a longstanding debate on whether we should actually depend on > > dependency ordering or just upgrade everything needs it to acquire. But this > > isn't really specific to Rust, and whatever is decided is global to the full > > LKMM. > > Indeed, but the implementation on the C vs. Rust side differ > substantially, so assuming it'll work on the Rust side just because > "volatile" works more or less on the C side is a leap I wouldn't want > to take in my codebase. > Which part of the implementation is different between C and Rust? We implement all Relaxed atomics in Rust the same way as C: using C's READ_ONCE() and WRITE_ONCE(). > > > Furthermore, LTO arm64 promotes READ_ONCE to an acquire (see > > > arch/arm64/include/asm/rwonce.h): So are our C's atomic_read() and Rust's Atomic::load(). > > > > > > /* > > > * When building with LTO, there is an increased risk of the compiler > > > * converting an address dependency headed by a READ_ONCE() invocation > > > * into a control dependency and consequently allowing for harmful > > > * reordering by the CPU. > > > * > > > * Ensure that such transformations are harmless by overriding the generic > > > * READ_ONCE() definition with one that provides RCpc acquire semantics > > > * when building with LTO. > > > */ > > > > > > So for all intents and purposes, the only sound mapping when pairing > > > READ_ONCE() with an atomic load on the Rust side is to use Acquire > > > ordering. > > > > LLVM handles address dependency much saner than GCC does. It for example won't > > turn address comparing equal into meaning that the pointer can be interchanged > > (as provenance won't match). Currently only address comparision to NULL or > > static can have effect on pointer provenance. > > > > Although, last time I asked if we can rely on this for address dependency, I > > didn't get an affirmitive answer -- but I think in practice it won't be lost (as > > currently implemented). > > There is no guarantee here, and this can change with every new > release. In most cases where it matters it works today, but the > compiler (specifically LLVM) does break dependencies even if rarely > [1]. > > > Furthermore, Rust code currently does not participate in LTO. > > LTO is not the problem, aggressive compiler optimizations (as > discussed in [1]) are. And Rust, by virtue of its strong type system, > appears to give the compiler a lot more leeway how it optimizes code. > So I think the Rust side is in greater danger here than the C with LTO > side. But I'm speculating (pun intended) ... > > However, given "Relaxed" for the Rust side is already defined to > "carry dependencies" then in isolation my original comment is moot and > does not apply to this particular patch. At face value the promised > semantics are ok, but the implementation (just like "volatile" for C) > probably are not. But that appears to be beyond this patch, so feel Implementation-wise, READ_ONCE() is used the same as C for atomic_read(), so Rust and C are on the same boat. Regards, Boqun > free to ignore.