From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from desiato.infradead.org (desiato.infradead.org [90.155.92.199]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5A0F19E7D1; Thu, 3 Apr 2025 08:57:58 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=90.155.92.199 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1743670681; cv=none; b=u8XFtfsyiMiZ4oTVrHY45q6aWdqTC3Uw6hXqzlDVQpYwCzi3fqW/lDjBc2oqA9I7f9WIjriGDz4maxJ/hs7pLqyJDx3EeblB1rQruBPOtCAKDC2iatm9KHlQEvjxn6Ras5lKB/C3uATWiUHJXvoHhVqPYZn1c1KAnNQqx4nBrvQ= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1743670681; c=relaxed/simple; bh=7M7vDWKLX4YZ0KEasSf241fI/bxvNQ7WSDJ+RTbEi3g=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=u7BV255PFxQR6FO+6VhjZk+mjdl+UKBx5V+s3XYlTcmMbJntNEHyRLyLHYszHHdoYM+IKz43fTUqKTqkI7sxR5odo/ZFtzzIrAizCzCx1C+Iu/AnK1DpfJO1GNaQNTq0UotbTVMtrTRUJu++HUWwhQgQzh0XxSJVVkARMBE+pEo= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=infradead.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=desiato.srs.infradead.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=infradead.org header.i=@infradead.org header.b=MywQEmur; arc=none smtp.client-ip=90.155.92.199 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=infradead.org Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=desiato.srs.infradead.org Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=infradead.org header.i=@infradead.org header.b="MywQEmur" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=infradead.org; s=desiato.20200630; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:References: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=7M7vDWKLX4YZ0KEasSf241fI/bxvNQ7WSDJ+RTbEi3g=; b=MywQEmurh9B91rXIZZprE2kjYS dIusyUS+h+JR2dMkIrdduMFuNnfPUrMWYlAzZNLzTw3t1YkJtiwAiktGLfMwTqNJyYrQQ/ZVuwTyj 5fSWw2jKJ3G8i5wPsotQHrdtbCLlioAhdKlj94hxVgfd77QSjqQ4eUKIHQzTOZi78n7sZyYAfnMAk j+eYLff3Qw6hPAmPXNsL9iyD48SOk5FsOhtvqaAQKPIXFQ6R9/d6su2Kg9Vuykp+E3PZokT7NXWcu 8hAMfhsFBCTDr39w+GhCJJj1rfGxgP0Zk0CJ/9bgGIWXmqo/1vTaLQ2R/OouIPHuozeDOlLy72SgA uKMvjz3g==; Received: from [172.31.31.145] (helo=u09cd745991455d.ant.amazon.com) by desiato.infradead.org with esmtpsa (Exim 4.98.1 #2 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1u0GOa-000000079qp-0AfK; Thu, 03 Apr 2025 08:57:56 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 1/3] content: Add VIRTIO_F_SWIOTLB to negotiate use of SWIOTLB bounce buffers From: David Woodhouse To: Zhu Lingshan , "Michael S. Tsirkin" Cc: virtio-comment@lists.linux.dev, hch@infradead.org, Claire Chang , linux-devicetree , Rob Herring , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg?= Roedel , iommu@lists.linux-foundation.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, graf@amazon.de Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2025 09:57:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: References: <20250402112410.2086892-1-dwmw2@infradead.org> <20250402112410.2086892-2-dwmw2@infradead.org> <1966cbf1-a430-480e-a78d-3d6bbcb4ada4@amd.com> <20250403033230-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <59be937432fe73b5781ecb04aad501ae5a11be23.camel@infradead.org> <20250403040643-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <0261dfd09a5c548c1a0f56c89c7302e9701b630d.camel@infradead.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-9GU+cV9gg/kx1fk2r01Y" User-Agent: Evolution 3.52.3-0ubuntu1 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SRS-Rewrite: SMTP reverse-path rewritten from by desiato.infradead.org. See http://www.infradead.org/rpr.html --=-9GU+cV9gg/kx1fk2r01Y Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2025-04-03 at 16:34 +0800, Zhu Lingshan wrote: > On 4/3/2025 4:22 PM, David Woodhouse wrote: > > On Thu, 2025-04-03 at 04:13 -0400, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 03, 2025 at 08:54:45AM +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: > > > > On Thu, 2025-04-03 at 03:34 -0400, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > > > > > Indeed I personally do not exactly get why implement a virtual sy= stem > > > > > without an IOMMU when virtio-iommu is available. > > > > >=20 > > > > > I have a feeling it's about lack of windows drivers for virtio-io= mmu > > > > > at this point. > > > > And a pKVM (etc.) implementation of virtio-iommu which would allow = the > > > > *trusted* part of the hypervisor to know which guest memory should = be > > > > shared with the VMM implementing the virtio device models? > > > Is there a blocker here? > > Only the amount of complexity in what should be a minimal Trusted > > Compute Base. (And ideally subject to formal methods of proving its > > correctness too.) > >=20 > > And frankly, if we were going to accept a virtio-iommu in the TCB why > > not just implement enough virtqueue knowledge to build something where > > the trusted part just snoops on the *actual* e.g. virtio-net device to > > know which buffers the VMM was *invited* to access, and facilitate > > that? > you trust CPU=C2=A0 and its IOMMU, and the virtio-iommu is provided by th= e hypervisor, > emulated by the CPU. If you don't trust virtio-iommu, then you should not= trust > the bounce buffer, because it is unencrypted, more like a security leak. >=20 > Actually everything is suspicious even the CPU, but you have to trust a T= CB and > try to minimize the TCB. I remember there is an attestation mechanism to = help > examine the infrastructure.=C2=A0 We need a balance and a tradeoff. In the pKVM model, we have a minimal trusted part of the hypervisor, which some are calling a "lowvisor", which enforces the property that even the rest of Linux/KVM and the VMM are not able to access arbitrary guest memory. For true PCI passthrough devices, hardware has a two-stage IOMMU which allows the guest to control which parts of its memory are accessible by the devices. The problem is those device models which are emulated in the VMM, because the VMM no longer has blanket access to the guest's memory. The simplest answer is just for the device models presented by the VMM to *not* do DMA access to guest system memory. Stick a bounce-buffer on the device itself, and do I/O through that. Yes, as you say, we have to trust the CPU and its IOMMU. And the microcode and low-level firmware, etc. But we do *not* trust most of Linux/KVM and the VMM. We only trust up to the pKVM "lowvisor" level. So if there is going to be a virtio- iommu, that's where it would have to be implemented. Otherwise, the VMM is just saying to the lowvisor, "please grant me access to guest page because...erm... I said so". Which is not quite how the trust model is supposed to work. As noted in the original cover letter to this series, there are other options too. We could implement enlightenments in the guest to share/unshare pages, and corresponding dma_ops which simply invoke those hypercalls. That's a bit less complexity in the TCB, but does end up with a set of guest enlightenments which need to be supported in the core of every operating system. Compared with the option of a simple device driver for a device which conceptually doesn't do DMA at all. --=-9GU+cV9gg/kx1fk2r01Y Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCD9Aw ggSOMIIDdqADAgECAhAOmiw0ECVD4cWj5DqVrT9PMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMGUxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxEaWdpQ2VydCBJbmMxGTAXBgNVBAsTEHd3dy5kaWdpY2VydC5jb20xJDAi BgNVBAMTG0RpZ2lDZXJ0IEFzc3VyZWQgSUQgUm9vdCBDQTAeFw0yNDAxMzAwMDAwMDBaFw0zMTEx MDkyMzU5NTlaMEExCzAJBgNVBAYTAkFVMRAwDgYDVQQKEwdWZXJva2V5MSAwHgYDVQQDExdWZXJv a2V5IFNlY3VyZSBFbWFpbCBHMjCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAMjvgLKj jfhCFqxYyRiW8g3cNFAvltDbK5AzcOaR7yVzVGadr4YcCVxjKrEJOgi7WEOH8rUgCNB5cTD8N/Et GfZI+LGqSv0YtNa54T9D1AWJy08ZKkWvfGGIXN9UFAPMJ6OLLH/UUEgFa+7KlrEvMUupDFGnnR06 aDJAwtycb8yXtILj+TvfhLFhafxroXrflspavejQkEiHjNjtHnwbZ+o43g0/yxjwnarGI3kgcak7 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