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From: "Albert D. Cahalan" <acahalan@cs.uml.edu>
To: mikulas@artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz (Mikulas Patocka)
Cc: jgarzik@mandrakesoft.com (Jeff Garzik),
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org (Linux-Kernel)
Subject: Re: The lack of specification (was Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation... )
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:17:24 -0500 (EST)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <200102192017.f1JKHO952286@saturn.cs.uml.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010219191533.6201A-100000@artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz> from "Mikulas Patocka" at Feb 19, 2001 08:11:14 PM

Mikulas Patocka writes:

> Imagine that there is specification of mark_buffer_dirty. That
> specification says that
> 	1. it may not block
> 	2. it may block
> 
> In case 1. implementators wouldn't change it to block in stable kernel
> 	relese because they don't want to violate the specification.

One of these things must happen:

a. follow the specification, even if that makes code slow and contorted
b. change the specification
c. ignore the specification
d. get rid of the specification

Option "a" will not be accepted around here. Sorry. The best you can
hope for is option "b". Since that is hard work (want to help?) we
often end up not using a specification... hopefully by just not
having one, instead of by ignoring one.

Not saying it doesn't suck to have things undocumented, but at least
you don't have to reverse-engineer a multi-megabyte binary kernel to
find out what is going on.

>> Anytime you change implementation, you gotta check all drivers that use
>> them.  I know, I'm one of the grunts that does such reviews and changes.
>
> Anytime you change implementation of syscalls, you gotta check all
> applications that use them ;-) Luckily not - because there is
> specification and you can check that syscalls conform to the
> specification, not apps. 

Syscalls are more stable, but they may be changed after many years
of a transition period. The C library hides some of this from users.

> Now implementators of TCP will say: that driver is buggy. Everybody should
> set state=TASK_RUNNING before calling schedule to yield the process. 
> 
> Implementators of driver will say: TCP is buggy - no one should call my
> driver in TASK_[UN]INTERRUPTIBLE state.
> 
> Who is right? If there is no specification....

The driver is buggy, unless the TCP maintainer can be convinced
that TCP is buggy. TCP is a big chunk of code that most people use,
while the driver is not so huge or critical.

The TCP maintainers do not seem to be sadistic bastards hell-bent on
breaking your drivers. API changes usually have a good reason.

  parent reply	other threads:[~2001-02-19 20:17 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 148+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2001-02-15 17:49 Linux stifles innovation fsnchzjr
2001-02-15 17:55 ` Stephen Frost
2001-02-15 18:04 ` Mark Haney
2001-02-15 19:49   ` David D.W. Downey
2001-02-15 20:20     ` Alan Olsen
2001-02-15 20:42       ` dave
2001-02-15 21:17         ` Richard B. Johnson
2001-02-15 20:43       ` [OTP] " David D.W. Downey
2001-02-15 22:31       ` Bill Wendling
2001-02-15 22:37         ` William T Wilson
2001-02-16 12:45       ` Rik van Riel
2001-02-16 15:10         ` James Sutherland
2001-02-16 16:02           ` Mark Haney
2001-02-16 16:26             ` David Woodhouse
2001-02-16 16:30               ` Mark Haney
2001-02-16 19:23           ` David D.W. Downey
2001-02-16 20:18             ` James Sutherland
2001-02-17  0:03               ` Carlos Fernandez Sanz
2001-02-17  0:35                 ` Dan Hollis
2001-02-17  0:41                   ` Michael H. Warfield
2001-02-17  1:52                     ` Dan Hollis
2001-02-17  2:20                     ` XOR [ was: Linux stifles innovation... ] David Relson
2001-02-17  2:32                       ` Dan Hollis
2001-02-17  8:16                       ` Jonathan Morton
2001-02-17 13:16                       ` David Relson
2001-02-17 18:12                       ` brian
2001-02-18  2:01                         ` Dan Hollis
2001-02-17  9:08                     ` Linux stifles innovation James Sutherland
2001-02-17 12:45                     ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-17  9:05                 ` James Sutherland
2001-02-17  0:04     ` LA Walsh
2001-02-16  9:26 ` Helge Hafting
2001-02-16  9:36   ` James Sutherland
2001-02-16 12:44     ` Helge Hafting
2001-02-16 17:40     ` Joseph Pingenot
2001-02-16 14:25 ` Andrew Scott
2001-02-16 19:48   ` Jesse Pollard
2001-02-16 22:27   ` Dennis
2001-02-16 22:20     ` Alan Cox
2001-02-17 12:37       ` [LONG RANT] " Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-17 13:37         ` Russell King
2001-02-17 19:15           ` Henning P . Schmiedehausen
2001-02-17 22:03             ` Felix von Leitner
2001-02-18 11:54               ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-18 12:26                 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-18 13:43                 ` Russell King
2001-02-18  9:27             ` Russell King
2001-02-17 19:20           ` Jacob Luna Lundberg
2001-02-18  1:06             ` Peter Samuelson
2001-02-18  4:15             ` Ben Ford
2001-02-17 18:48         ` Jonathan Morton
2001-02-19  9:24         ` Helge Hafting
2001-02-19 10:53         ` Werner Almesberger
2001-02-19 11:07           ` Jeff Garzik
2001-02-19 11:28             ` Nicholas Knight
2001-02-19 11:36               ` David Lang
2001-02-19 12:53                 ` Nicholas Knight
2001-02-19 11:47               ` Jeff Garzik
2001-02-19 12:57                 ` Nicholas Knight
2001-02-19 12:00             ` Werner Almesberger
2001-02-19 12:15             ` Henning P . Schmiedehausen
2001-02-19 16:04               ` Paul Jakma
2001-02-19 16:07               ` Alan Cox
2001-02-19 14:15             ` Jes Sorensen
2001-02-20 23:39             ` Brian May
2001-02-19 11:59           ` Henning P . Schmiedehausen
2001-02-19 13:11             ` Werner Almesberger
2001-02-19 14:07               ` David Howells
2001-02-19 14:55                 ` Jeff Garzik
2001-02-19 15:53                   ` Mikulas Patocka
2001-02-19 16:26                     ` Jeff Garzik
2001-02-19 19:11                       ` The lack of specification (was Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation... ) Mikulas Patocka
2001-02-19 20:02                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2001-02-19 20:17                         ` Albert D. Cahalan [this message]
2001-02-19 21:18                           ` Mikulas Patocka
2001-02-19 21:34                           ` The lack of specification Russell King
2001-02-19 21:47                             ` Eli Carter
2001-02-19 15:58                   ` [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation Richard B. Johnson
2001-02-19 16:14                     ` Jeff Garzik
2001-02-19 16:26                     ` Alan Cox
2001-02-19 21:57                     ` Keith Owens
2001-02-19 19:27             ` Andre Hedrick
2001-02-17 16:54       ` Francois Romieu
2001-02-16 22:31     ` Dan Hollis
2001-02-16 22:51     ` David D.W. Downey
2001-02-16 22:59     ` Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.] John Cavan
2001-02-16 23:07     ` Linux stifles innovation Mike A. Harris
2001-02-16 23:45       ` Matt D. Robinson
2001-02-16 23:46         ` Mike A. Harris
2001-02-17  0:15           ` Matt D. Robinson
2001-02-17  0:34             ` Werner Almesberger
2001-02-17  0:54               ` Matt D. Robinson
2001-02-17  1:58                 ` Werner Almesberger
2001-02-17 12:41       ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-17 17:51         ` Robert Read
     [not found]         ` <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010217145415.31128A-100000@orion.hq.dalalu.fr>
2001-02-17 18:40           ` Henning P . Schmiedehausen
2001-02-17  0:01     ` Alan Olsen
2001-02-17  0:10     ` rjd
2001-02-17  1:34     ` Neal Dias
2001-02-17  2:05     ` Augustin Vidovic
2001-02-17 12:46       ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-17 13:13         ` Roeland Th. Jansen
2001-02-21 23:00       ` Dr. Kelsey Hudson
2001-02-21 23:17         ` Augustin Vidovic
2001-02-22  1:08           ` Dr. Kelsey Hudson
2001-02-22  0:09       ` Jonathan Morton
2001-02-22  0:21         ` Alan Cox
2001-02-23 12:14         ` Wakko Warner
2001-02-23 12:31           ` David Weinehall
2001-02-27  8:48             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2001-02-17  7:20     ` Mike Pontillo
2001-02-17 16:11       ` [OT]Re: " Gregory Maxwell
2001-02-17  7:39     ` Vesselin Atanasov
2001-02-17 19:08     ` Dennis
2001-02-17 19:08       ` Mohammad A. Haque
2001-02-17 20:47       ` Alan Cox
2001-02-24 21:11       ` Dennis
2001-02-24 21:06         ` Alan Cox
2001-02-17 19:11     ` Dennis
2001-02-17 19:36       ` Francois Romieu
2001-02-17 20:48       ` Alan Cox
2001-02-17 19:24     ` Dennis
2001-02-17 19:38     ` Dennis
2001-02-17 20:01       ` Michael Bacarella
2001-02-17 20:11         ` James A. Sutherland
2001-02-17 19:56     ` Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.] Dennis
2001-02-17 20:28       ` Michael H. Warfield
2001-02-18 11:25         ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-18 15:32           ` John Cavan
2001-02-18  0:13       ` Gerhard Mack
2001-02-17 20:05     ` Linux stifles innovation Dennis
2001-02-17 20:05       ` James A. Sutherland
2001-02-17 20:14       ` Michael H. Warfield
2001-02-18 10:57         ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-17 20:28       ` Alan Olsen
2001-02-21 23:48         ` Dr. Kelsey Hudson
2001-02-17 22:07       ` Felix von Leitner
2001-02-17 20:08     ` Dennis
2001-02-17 20:22       ` Michael H. Warfield
2001-02-17 20:41       ` Gregory Maxwell
2001-02-18 10:59         ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2001-02-18 21:02           ` Bob Taylor
2001-02-17 22:38       ` Andre Hedrick
2001-02-17 23:07         ` Michael H. Warfield
2001-02-18 15:20       ` Stefan Smietanowski
2001-02-18  0:51     ` Peter Samuelson
2001-02-16 23:33   ` Hristo Doichev
2001-02-16 17:25 ` Byron Albert

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