Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Dieter Nützel]

You wrote:
> hi there!
>
> a few month ago someone has posted a patch for enabling the disconneect
> on STPGND detect function in the kt133/kt133a chipset.

Maybe it's time for AMD/VIA/SiS/Nvidia, etc. to come up with there code for 
_ALL_ Athlon/Duron chipsets???
As we are in trouble with AMD 4MB pages, yet.

Have a look at www.vcool.de

Regards,
	Dieter

-- 
Dieter Nützel
Graduate Student, Computer Science

University of Hamburg
Department of Computer Science
@home: Dieter.Nuetzel@hamburg.de

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Daniel Nofftz]

On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Dieter [iso-8859-15] Nützel wrote:

> Maybe it's time for AMD/VIA/SiS/Nvidia, etc. to come up with there code for
> _ALL_ Athlon/Duron chipsets???
> As we are in trouble with AMD 4MB pages, yet.
>
> Have a look at www.vcool.de

yes ... maybee ... the problem is , that the disconnect-function  is
enabled by the chipset ... and it is a different register in every
different chipset. so it is a little bit difficult to make a solution for
all chipsets.
by the way ... i know www.vcool.de ... my work is partialy based on this.
but the vcool linux patch/version does not support kt266/kt266a chipset.
(only the kt/kx133 chipset)
after some mail exchange with the developer of vcool, i decided to wrote a
kernelpatch, which supports the kt266/kt266a chipset too. (one of my
reasosns for this was, that the developer of vcool will not develop the
linux version further) .
the second thing is, that this patch is a little bit simpler then the
(l)vcool approach ... i think ... :)

ah ... if someone sends me the the needed informations, which registers
(or register-bits) are to be changed on ther chipsets to activate the
disconnect-function, i will add this chipsets to the patch.

daniel


# Daniel Nofftz
# Sysadmin CIP-Pool Informatik
# University of Trier(Germany), Room V 103
# Mail: daniel@nofftz.de

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Dieter Nützel]

On Tuesday, 22. January 2002 23:21, Daniel Nofftz wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Dieter [iso-8859-15] Nützel wrote:
> > Maybe it's time for AMD/VIA/SiS/Nvidia, etc. to come up with there code
> > for _ALL_ Athlon/Duron chipsets???
> > As we are in trouble with AMD 4MB pages, yet.
> >
> > Have a look at www.vcool.de
>
> yes ... maybee ... the problem is , that the disconnect-function  is
> enabled by the chipset ... and it is a different register in every
> different chipset. so it is a little bit difficult to make a solution for
> all chipsets.

I know that and my intention was that we _NEED_ documentation to support it 
on _ALL_ chipsets out there.

AMD should notice how many people using there CPUs and I think they do know 
it.

So let's make a call.

> by the way ... i know www.vcool.de ... my work is partialy based on this.
> but the vcool linux patch/version does not support kt266/kt266a chipset.
> (only the kt/kx133 chipset)

I know.

> after some mail exchange with the developer of vcool,

I did that, too.
Andreas Jaeger (SuSE) told me that maybe he could help.
He got the USB patch information for the AMD Irongate after a few days out of 
them...

> i decided to wrote a kernelpatch, which supports the kt266/kt266a chipset
> too.

Good work.

> (one of my reasosns for this was, that the developer of vcool will not
> develop the linux version further) .

Sadly to hear.

> the second thing is, that this patch is a little bit simpler then the
> (l)vcool approach ... i think ... :)

I can't compare 'cause I have the AMD Irongate C4...;-)

> ah ... if someone sends me the the needed informations, which registers
> (or register-bits) are to be changed on ther chipsets to activate the
> disconnect-function, i will add this chipsets to the patch.

I hope we get some info, now.

-Dieter

-- 
Dieter Nützel
Graduate Student, Computer Science

University of Hamburg
Department of Computer Science
@home: Dieter.Nuetzel@hamburg.de

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Daniel Nofftz]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Timothy Covell wrote:
> 1. According to AMD specs, the model 3 Duron's don't
> use more that 40 Watts maximum.
>
> 2. With my Duron 800 on a KT133A chipset
> running folding@home and seti@home
> continuously, LM sensors reports:
>
> SYS Temp: +45.2°C
> CPU Temp: +35.1°C
> SBr Temp: +25.8°C
>
>
> So, I see absolutely no cause for alarm, nor even a need for
> lvcool (esp. not when running seti@home).   And  I certainly
> haven't seen any Athlon PSE/AGP lockups.  So, are you all
> overclockng your systems to an incredible amount (again,
> that's something that seems really stupid to me since the
> $$ difference between 1GHz and 800MHz is not worth the
> potential damage; and the duron is up to 1.3GHz now....)

ok ... here so,e arguments why you could use this power-saving-patch:

1. my cpu is a xp 1600+ ... it is designed for around 56W power
consumption (as far as i know). his temperature is around 47°C under load.
and without the patch this temperatur and power consumptions is by no way
lesser, when he is idle. with the patch the temperature drops by around 10
°C and for the first time i noticed, that i have 2 temperature controlled
fans (cpu and psu fan) in my case. now he isnice quiet when there is no
realy load on it, and he only sounds like a hairdrier when he gets realy
somthing to do (ok ... when you  have seti running all the time, the patch
would not make any difference in poer consumption or temperature ... cause
the mashine is under load all the time)

2. power safing is a realy good idea generally !

3. that the amd cpu saves no power before u have activated this
bus-disconnect-function is a bug :) (as far as i know)

oh ...  by the way: i have not overclocked my computer ... i only want to
save a little bit of power, when my computer has nothing realy to do (only
surfing, mailing, programming) and i am glad that i now could have some
benefits from temperatur controlled fans (the noise level is much lesser
now)

daniel

# Daniel Nofftz
# Sysadmin CIP-Pool Informatik
# University of Trier(Germany), Room V 103
# Mail: daniel@nofftz.de

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Vojtech Pavlik]

On Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 08:27:29AM +0100, Daniel Nofftz wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Timothy Covell wrote:
> > 1. According to AMD specs, the model 3 Duron's don't
> > use more that 40 Watts maximum.
> >
> > 2. With my Duron 800 on a KT133A chipset
> > running folding@home and seti@home
> > continuously, LM sensors reports:
> >
> > SYS Temp: +45.2°C
> > CPU Temp: +35.1°C
> > SBr Temp: +25.8°C
> >
> >
> > So, I see absolutely no cause for alarm, nor even a need for
> > lvcool (esp. not when running seti@home).   And  I certainly
> > haven't seen any Athlon PSE/AGP lockups.  So, are you all
> > overclockng your systems to an incredible amount (again,
> > that's something that seems really stupid to me since the
> > $$ difference between 1GHz and 800MHz is not worth the
> > potential damage; and the duron is up to 1.3GHz now....)
> 
> ok ... here so,e arguments why you could use this power-saving-patch:
> 
> 1. my cpu is a xp 1600+ ... it is designed for around 56W power
> consumption (as far as i know). his temperature is around 47°C under load.
> and without the patch this temperatur and power consumptions is by no way
> lesser, when he is idle. with the patch the temperature drops by around 10
> °C and for the first time i noticed, that i have 2 temperature controlled
> fans (cpu and psu fan) in my case. now he isnice quiet when there is no
> realy load on it, and he only sounds like a hairdrier when he gets realy
> somthing to do (ok ... when you  have seti running all the time, the patch
> would not make any difference in poer consumption or temperature ... cause
> the mashine is under load all the time)
> 
> 2. power safing is a realy good idea generally !
> 
> 3. that the amd cpu saves no power before u have activated this
> bus-disconnect-function is a bug :) (as far as i know)
> 
> oh ...  by the way: i have not overclocked my computer ... i only want to
> save a little bit of power, when my computer has nothing realy to do (only
> surfing, mailing, programming) and i am glad that i now could have some
> benefits from temperatur controlled fans (the noise level is much lesser
> now)

Won't ACPI idle do that well enough?

-- 
Vojtech Pavlik
SuSE Labs

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Daniel Nofftz]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Vojtech Pavlik wrote:
> Won't ACPI idle do that well enough?

yes ... and no!
first: my patch is useless, if you don't activate acpi idle calls ...
second: the idle calls will not save power on an athlon/duron/athlon xp ,
unless a specific bit in the chipset is set, which will cause the chipset
to disconnect the frontside bus of the cpu ... and this is what the patch
does: it sets only the bit in the northbridge of the kt133/kx133 and
kt266/266a chipset ... -> now the acpi idle calls will bring power saving
and lesser temperature
the patch inserts a pci_quirk function which sets the bit in the
northbridge ... (at the boot-prompt you have to pass the comment
amd_disconnect=yes to use this function ...)

daniel

# Daniel Nofftz
# Sysadmin CIP-Pool Informatik
# University of Trier(Germany), Room V 103
# Mail: daniel@nofftz.de

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Ed Sweetman]

On Wed, 2002-01-23 at 08:19, Daniel Nofftz wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Vojtech Pavlik wrote:
> > Won't ACPI idle do that well enough?
> 
> yes ... and no!
> first: my patch is useless, if you don't activate acpi idle calls ...
> second: the idle calls will not save power on an athlon/duron/athlon xp ,
> unless a specific bit in the chipset is set, which will cause the chipset
> to disconnect the frontside bus of the cpu ... and this is what the patch
> does: it sets only the bit in the northbridge of the kt133/kx133 and
> kt266/266a chipset ... -> now the acpi idle calls will bring power saving
> and lesser temperature
> the patch inserts a pci_quirk function which sets the bit in the
> northbridge ... (at the boot-prompt you have to pass the comment
> amd_disconnect=yes to use this function ...)
> 
> daniel

What's the official word on the resulting stress on the hardware from
disconnecting and connecting rapidly like that?   Has any test ever been
carried out to see if it causes damage after say, a couple months of
use?  ...in other operating systems that had this already of course.  
always something not so safe sounding about turning the cpu on and off
rapidly added to the greater temperature extremes.   Also, can you
relink your patch?

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Daniel Nofftz]

On 23 Jan 2002, Ed Sweetman wrote:

> What's the official word on the resulting stress on the hardware from
> disconnecting and connecting rapidly like that?   Has any test ever been
> carried out to see if it causes damage after say, a couple months of
> use?  ...in other operating systems that had this already of course.
> always something not so safe sounding about turning the cpu on and off
> rapidly added to the greater temperature extremes.   Also, can you
> relink your patch?

i don't know whether there is a official word on the resulting stress. as
far as i heared, there are some stability problems known on some boards
(but i only heared this problems of people with an sis735 based
motherboard like the eltiegroup k7s5a ... but this is not so importend,
cause the sis735 is not supported by my patch ...)
it looks like some "poor" power supplays could not handle well the
changing current draw between the idle and the load states. BUT ... i
realy only heared this problems from one person with an elitegroup k7s5a
board !
cause i know that there maybee computers who have a problem with the
patch, you have to enter "amd_disconnect=yes" at the kernel-boot-prompt
(or in the append statement in /etc/lilo.conf). so it is easy to test the
funktion and to "not use it" when you have problems whith it...
at the university we have several computers running with the lvcool patch
which has a compareable functionality (but only supports kt133/kx133 based
board). they mostly have durons and working like a charm for several
month.
i have nothing heared about problems caused from "temperature-stress".
personally i don't think that this is a problem ....

i put the patch on the web ...
here is the url:
http://cip.uni-trier.de/nofftz/amd_cool.diff
it is a diff from the 2.4.17 kernel and you have to activate acpi, and
acpi-prozessor in the kernel-config to get benefit from the patch.

daniel


# Daniel Nofftz
# Sysadmin CIP-Pool Informatik
# University of Trier(Germany), Room V 103
# Mail: daniel@nofftz.de

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Daniel Nofftz]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Timothy Covell wrote:

> Hey, don't get me wrong.  I'm all for power-saving.  That's
> why I own a Via C3 based system.   The Via C3 works
> great as an NFS server and draws 12 Watts max (avg.
> is 6 watts).   For just email and web browsing, I'd definitely
> recommend it.   I'd also recommend it for a small firewall/router
> system.   However, for A/V apps and heavy compiling, it's
> definitely not the way to go [BeOS C3 can handle one
> A/V app at a time, but not several].
>
>
> If the patch is really the way to go, then we should get it
> put into the main distribution.  But if it is going to hurt
> my performance, then I'd be happy to stick with vanilla
> kapmd (hlt based) power saving.

eenabling the discconect function causes a performance drop of about 2-3 %
as far as i heared ... but this patch is only for athlon processors on an
board with via chipset ... nothing to do with a via c3 cpu :)
what the patch does is that it make the idle calls take effect on this
combination of chipset and cpu ...

daniel


# Daniel Nofftz
# Sysadmin CIP-Pool Informatik
# University of Trier(Germany), Room V 103
# Mail: daniel@nofftz.de

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Dieter Nützel]

On Thursday, 24. January 2002 06:14, Timothy Covell wrote:
> I'm confused by all of the posts and websites that
> I've read.   In particular, some of the wattage and
> temperature claims seem outrageous.   So, here's
> what I've been able to discover
>
> 1. According to AMD specs, the model 3 Duron's don't
> use more that 40 Watts maximum.
>
> 2. With my Duron 800 on a KT133A chipset
> running folding@home and seti@home
> continuously, LM sensors reports:
>
> SYS Temp: +45.2°C

What should this number mean?
Shouldn't this be the CPU temperature?

> CPU Temp: +35.1°C

Mobo?

> SBr Temp: +25.8°C

Case?

I think this is much to high. Read my other post.

-- 
Dieter Nützel
Graduate Student, Computer Science

University of Hamburg
Department of Computer Science
@home: Dieter.Nuetzel@hamburg.de

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Dieter Nützel]

On Wednesday, 23. January 2002 20:24, Daniel Nofftz wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Timothy Covell wrote:
> > Hey, don't get me wrong.  I'm all for power-saving.  That's
> > why I own a Via C3 based system.   The Via C3 works
> > great as an NFS server and draws 12 Watts max (avg.
> > is 6 watts).   For just email and web browsing, I'd definitely
> > recommend it.   I'd also recommend it for a small firewall/router
> > system.   However, for A/V apps and heavy compiling, it's
> > definitely not the way to go [BeOS C3 can handle one
> > A/V app at a time, but not several].
> >
> >
> > If the patch is really the way to go, then we should get it
> > put into the main distribution.  But if it is going to hurt
> > my performance, then I'd be happy to stick with vanilla
> > kapmd (hlt based) power saving.
>
> eenabling the discconect function causes a performance drop of about 2-3 %
> as far as i heared ...

If not smaller. Read the VCool doku.

> but this patch is only for athlon

Athlon and Duron

> processors on an board with via chipset ...

AMD 750/760/maybe MP/MPX, SiS, Ali, Nvidia (?), etc.

> nothing to do with a via c3 cpu :)
> what the patch does is that it make the idle calls take effect on this
> combination of chipset and cpu ...

YES. Without bus disconnet _NO_ real "idle" (cool CPU's).

-Dieter

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Dieter Nützel]

On Thursday, 24. January 2002 23:50, you wrote:
> On Wednesday 23 January 2002 14:18, you wrote:
> > On Thursday, 24. January 2002 06:14, Timothy Covell wrote:
> > > I'm confused by all of the posts and websites that
> > > I've read.   In particular, some of the wattage and
> > > temperature claims seem outrageous.   So, here's
> > > what I've been able to discover
> > >
> > > 1. According to AMD specs, the model 3 Duron's don't
> > > use more that 40 Watts maximum.
> > >
> > > 2. With my Duron 800 on a KT133A chipset
> > > running folding@home and seti@home
> > > continuously, LM sensors reports:
> > >
> > > SYS Temp: +45.2°C
> >
> > What should this number mean?
> > Shouldn't this be the CPU temperature?
>
> This corresponds to what my BIOS says is the CPU temp.
>
> > > CPU Temp: +35.1°C
> >
> > Mobo?
>
> This corresponds to what my BIOS says is the system temp.
>
> > > SBr Temp: +25.8°C
> >
> > Case?
>
> That's my guess as well.

OK, I see.

The BIOS numbers are all mostly wrong. When you are in the BIOS config (the 
Del or ESC key thing)...;-)  The CPU is running without any IDLE cycles at 
all.

> > I think this is much to high. Read my other post.
>
> Too high for a duron 800 running seti@home type loads nonstop?

Yes, sorry. I overlooked that.

> I think that this is the expected temperature.

What I expect is:

+45°C CPU
The sensor under the CPU 'cause only the Morgan and Athlon XP/MP have the new 
integrated sensor but only "latest" mobos support it. Not your KT133A based 
one.

+35°C mobo (but I haven't anyone with sensor seen so far)
Could be the CPU -10°C what's sometimes the case with some mobo manufactures.

+25°C System (the case temperature)
With your system load.

An idle system should look like this:

CPU		23-25°C	(with IDLE and BUS GRANT)
system (case)	20-23°C	(room temperature)

At any time (full load) the case temperature shouldn't go over 40°C with all 
stuff running (gfx, disks, lan, etc.). Recommendations from AMD and Intel. 

> I've come to the conclusion that the lm_sensors stuff is crap,

No, they have the frame work in place but need the usefull bits.
That's we are hunting for...

> but not totally because of the authors.  It looks like the manufacturers
> like VIA are not very helpful to the project.....

Very true!

Regards,
	Dieter
-- 
Dieter Nützel
Graduate Student, Computer Science

University of Hamburg
Department of Computer Science
@home: Dieter.Nuetzel@hamburg.de

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on KT133A sensor lockup

[Dieter Nützel]

On Friday, 25. January 2002 00:33, Timothy Covell wrote:
> I tried lvcool on my KT133A/Duron system.  When I ran the
> "sensors" program, it failed to exit and ate up 100% of the
> CPU.  Kill -9 refused to kill it.  I had to reboot to clear the
> problem which doesn't show up if I haven't run lvcool....

Maybe you can run Windows with VCool for a test? --- Yes, yes, I know...;-)

Have you tried the older VCool Linux patch?

I can't do that 'cause I have the AMD 750 (without doku from AMD) as you 
know, already.

-Dieter

-- 
Dieter Nützel
Graduate Student, Computer Science

University of Hamburg
Department of Computer Science
@home: Dieter.Nuetzel@hamburg.de

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Timothy Covell]

I'm confused by all of the posts and websites that
I've read.   In particular, some of the wattage and
temperature claims seem outrageous.   So, here's
what I've been able to discover		

1. According to AMD specs, the model 3 Duron's don't
use more that 40 Watts maximum. 

2. With my Duron 800 on a KT133A chipset
running folding@home and seti@home
continuously, LM sensors reports:

SYS Temp: +45.2°C  
CPU Temp: +35.1°C 
SBr Temp: +25.8°C


So, I see absolutely no cause for alarm, nor even a need for
lvcool (esp. not when running seti@home).   And  I certainly
haven't seen any Athlon PSE/AGP lockups.  So, are you all
overclockng your systems to an incredible amount (again, 
that's something that seems really stupid to me since the
$$ difference between 1GHz and 800MHz is not worth the
potential damage; and the duron is up to 1.3GHz now....)


-- 
timothy.covell@ashavan.org.

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> > Hey, don't get me wrong.  I'm all for power-saving.  That's
> > why I own a Via C3 based system.   The Via C3 works
> > great as an NFS server and draws 12 Watts max (avg.
> > is 6 watts).   For just email and web browsing, I'd definitely
> > recommend it.   I'd also recommend it for a small firewall/router
> > system.   However, for A/V apps and heavy compiling, it's
> > definitely not the way to go [BeOS C3 can handle one
> > A/V app at a time, but not several].
> >
> >
> > If the patch is really the way to go, then we should get it
> > put into the main distribution.  But if it is going to hurt
> > my performance, then I'd be happy to stick with vanilla
> > kapmd (hlt based) power saving.
> 
> eenabling the discconect function causes a performance drop of about 2-3 %
> as far as i heared ... but this patch is only for athlon processors
> on an

You could look for how long CPU was idle, and only if it was mostly
idle in last 10 seconds enable the bit ;-).
									Pavel
-- 
(about SSSCA) "I don't say this lightly.  However, I really think that the U.S.
no longer is classifiable as a democracy, but rather as a plutocracy." --hpa

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Timothy Covell]

[snip]
>
> 2. power safing is a realy good idea generally !
[snip]


Hey, don't get me wrong.  I'm all for power-saving.  That's
why I own a Via C3 based system.   The Via C3 works
great as an NFS server and draws 12 Watts max (avg.
is 6 watts).   For just email and web browsing, I'd definitely
recommend it.   I'd also recommend it for a small firewall/router
system.   However, for A/V apps and heavy compiling, it's
definitely not the way to go [BeOS C3 can handle one
A/V app at a time, but not several].


If the patch is really the way to go, then we should get it
put into the main distribution.  But if it is going to hurt
my performance, then I'd be happy to stick with vanilla
kapmd (hlt based) power saving.

-- 
timothy.covell@ashavan.org.

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on kt266/266a chipset

[Daniel Nofftz]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Pavel Machek wrote:

> Hi!
>
> You could look for how long CPU was idle, and only if it was mostly
> idle in last 10 seconds enable the bit ;-).
> 									Pavel

i will keep it in my mind ... when nothing other is found which cause the
problems ...

daniel



# Daniel Nofftz
# Sysadmin CIP-Pool Informatik
# University of Trier(Germany), Room V 103
# Mail: daniel@nofftz.de

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on KT133A sensor lockup

[Timothy Covell]

I tried lvcool on my KT133A/Duron system.  When I ran the
"sensors" program, it failed to exit and ate up 100% of the
CPU.  Kill -9 refused to kill it.  I had to reboot to clear the
problem which doesn't show up if I haven't run lvcool....

-- 
timothy.covell@ashavan.org.

Re: [patch] amd athlon cooling on KT133A sensor lockup

[Timothy Covell]

On Wednesday 23 January 2002 17:48, Dieter Nützel wrote:
> On Friday, 25. January 2002 00:33, Timothy Covell wrote:
> > I tried lvcool on my KT133A/Duron system.  When I ran the
> > "sensors" program, it failed to exit and ate up 100% of the
> > CPU.  Kill -9 refused to kill it.  I had to reboot to clear the
> > problem which doesn't show up if I haven't run lvcool....
>
> Maybe you can run Windows with VCool for a test? --- Yes, yes, I know...;-)
>
> Have you tried the older VCool Linux patch?
>
> I can't do that 'cause I have the AMD 750 (without doku from AMD) as you
> know, already.
>
> -Dieter

Sorry, I only own an old copy of NT 4.0 and last time I tried to install
it, it was so old that it bluescreened due to hardware problems.   That and 
it's against my morals to run M$ crap.

-- 
timothy.covell@ashavan.org.