RE: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

RE: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Hua Zhong (hzhong)]

The reason is what if tsk is no longer available when you call
getrusage? 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org 
> [mailto:linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org] On Behalf Of 
> Claudio Scordino
> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 2:34 PM
> To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; kernelnewbies@nl.linux.org
> Subject: [PATCH] getrusage sucks
> 
> Does exist any _real_ reason why getrusage can't be invoked 
> by a task to know 
> statistics of another task ?
> 
> The changes would be very trivial, as shown by the following patch.
> 
>               Claudio
> 
> 
> diff --git a/kernel/sys.c b/kernel/sys.c
> --- a/kernel/sys.c
> +++ b/kernel/sys.c
> @@ -1746,9 +1746,13 @@ int getrusage(struct task_struct *p, int
> 
>  asmlinkage long sys_getrusage(int who, struct rusage __user *ru)
>  {
> -  if (who != RUSAGE_SELF && who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN)
> -     return -EINVAL;
> -  return getrusage(current, who, ru);
> +  if (who != RUSAGE_SELF && who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN) {
> +      struct task_struct* tsk = find_task_by_pid(who);
> +      if (tsk == NULL)
> +        return -EINVAL;
> +     return getrusage(tsk, RUSAGE_SELF, ru);
> +   } else
> +     return getrusage(current, who, ru);
>  }
> 
>  asmlinkage long sys_umask(int mask)
> -
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Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Claudio Scordino]

On Friday 11 November 2005 00:47, Hua Zhong (hzhong) wrote:
> The reason is what if tsk is no longer available when you call
> getrusage?

Sorry, but honestly I don't see any problem: as you can see from my patch, if 
tsk is no longer available, getrusage returns -1 and sets errno appropriately 
(equal to EINVAL, which means that who is invalid).

            Claudio

>
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > Does exist any _real_ reason why getrusage can't be invoked
> > by a task to know
> > statistics of another task ?
> >
> > The changes would be very trivial, as shown by the following patch.
> >
> >               Claudio
> >
> >
> > diff --git a/kernel/sys.c b/kernel/sys.c
> > --- a/kernel/sys.c
> > +++ b/kernel/sys.c
> > @@ -1746,9 +1746,13 @@ int getrusage(struct task_struct *p, int
> >
> >  asmlinkage long sys_getrusage(int who, struct rusage __user *ru)
> >  {
> > -  if (who != RUSAGE_SELF && who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN)
> > -     return -EINVAL;
> > -  return getrusage(current, who, ru);
> > +  if (who != RUSAGE_SELF && who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN) {
> > +      struct task_struct* tsk = find_task_by_pid(who);
> > +      if (tsk == NULL)
> > +        return -EINVAL;
> > +     return getrusage(tsk, RUSAGE_SELF, ru);
> > +   } else
> > +     return getrusage(current, who, ru);
> >  }
> >
> >  asmlinkage long sys_umask(int mask)

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Magnus Naeslund(f)]

Claudio Scordino wrote:
> On Friday 11 November 2005 00:47, Hua Zhong (hzhong) wrote:
>
>>The reason is what if tsk is no longer available when you call
>>getrusage?
>
>
> Sorry, but honestly I don't see any problem: as you can see from my
patch, if
> tsk is no longer available, getrusage returns -1 and sets errno
appropriately
> (equal to EINVAL, which means that who is invalid).
>
>             Claudio
>

You need to wrap this with a read_lock(&tasklist_lock) to be safe, I think.

Regards,
Magnus

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Claudio Scordino]

> You need to wrap this with a read_lock(&tasklist_lock) to be safe, I think.

Right. Probably this was the meaning also of Hua's mail. Sorry, but I didn't 
get it immediately.

So, what if I do as follows ? Do you see any problem with this solution ?

Many thanks,

              Claudio



diff --git a/kernel/sys.c b/kernel/sys.c
--- a/kernel/sys.c
+++ b/kernel/sys.c
@@ -1746,9 +1746,22 @@ int getrusage(struct task_struct *p, int

 asmlinkage long sys_getrusage(int who, struct rusage __user *ru)
 {
-       if (who != RUSAGE_SELF && who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN)
-               return -EINVAL;
-       return getrusage(current, who, ru);
+        int res;
+        if (who != RUSAGE_SELF && who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN) {
+                struct task_struct* tsk;
+                read_lock(&tasklist_lock);
+                tsk = find_task_by_pid(who);
+                if (tsk == NULL) {
+                        read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
+                        return -EINVAL;
+                }
+                res = getrusage(tsk, RUSAGE_SELF, ru);
+                read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
+                return res;
+        } else {
+                res = getrusage(current, who, ru);
+                return res;
+        }
 }

 asmlinkage long sys_umask(int mask)

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Alan Cox]

On Gwe, 2005-11-11 at 02:11 +0100, Claudio Scordino wrote:
> > You need to wrap this with a read_lock(&tasklist_lock) to be safe, I think.
> 
> Right. Probably this was the meaning also of Hua's mail. Sorry, but I didn't 
> get it immediately.
> 
> So, what if I do as follows ? Do you see any problem with this solution ?

It will depend on the data accuracy. If the information on cpu usage is
very accurate then it becomes a way to analyse what is happening to
tasks you don't own - such as say cryptographic functions in the web
server...

Otherwise, or with an owner check I see no real problem with the concept

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Claudio Scordino]

> > > You need to wrap this with a read_lock(&tasklist_lock) to be safe, I
> > > think.
> >
>
> It will depend on the data accuracy. If the information on cpu usage is
> very accurate then it becomes a way to analyse what is happening to
> tasks you don't own - such as say cryptographic functions in the web
> server...
>
> Otherwise, or with an owner check I see no real problem with the concept


So, is the following patch right ? I've added both the lock and the owner 
check...

Do you think it may be an interesting feature to be inserted in the kernel ?

Many thanks,

                 Claudio



diff --git a/kernel/sys.c b/kernel/sys.c
--- a/kernel/sys.c
+++ b/kernel/sys.c
@@ -1746,9 +1746,25 @@ int getrusage(struct task_struct *p, int

 asmlinkage long sys_getrusage(int who, struct rusage __user *ru)
 {
-       if (who != RUSAGE_SELF && who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN)
-               return -EINVAL;
-       return getrusage(current, who, ru);
+        if (who != RUSAGE_SELF && who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN) {
+                struct task_struct* tsk;
+                struct rusage r;
+                read_lock(&tasklist_lock);
+                tsk = find_task_by_pid(who);
+                if (tsk == NULL) {
+                        read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
+                        return -EINVAL;
+                }
+                if ((current->euid != tsk->euid) &&
+                (current->euid != tsk->uid)) {
+                        read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
+                        return -EINVAL;
+                }
+                k_getrusage(tsk, RUSAGE_SELF, &r);
+                read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
+                return copy_to_user(ru, &r, sizeof(r)) ? -EFAULT : 0;
+        } else
+                return getrusage(current, who, ru);
 }

 asmlinkage long sys_umask(int mask)

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Alan Cox]

On Gwe, 2005-11-11 at 23:38 +0100, Claudio Scordino wrote:
> +                if ((current->euid != tsk->euid) &&
> +                (current->euid != tsk->uid)) {
> +                        read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
> +                        return -EINVAL;


Would be -EPERM also wants a 'privilege' check. Not sure which would be
best here - CAP_SYS_ADMIN seems to be the 'default' used

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Chris Wright]

* Alan Cox (alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk) wrote:
> On Gwe, 2005-11-11 at 23:38 +0100, Claudio Scordino wrote:
> > +                if ((current->euid != tsk->euid) &&
> > +                (current->euid != tsk->uid)) {
> > +                        read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
> > +                        return -EINVAL;
> 
> 
> Would be -EPERM also wants a 'privilege' check. Not sure which would be
> best here - CAP_SYS_ADMIN seems to be the 'default' used

It's already available via /proc w/out protection.  And ditto via posix
cpu timers.

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[David Wagner]

Chris Wright  wrote:
>It's already available via /proc w/out protection.  And ditto via posix
>cpu timers.

If so, maybe that code should be fixed.  Where exactly in /proc would
I find the getrusage() info of another process?  Is there any argument
that disclosing it to everyone is safe?  Or is it just that no one has
ever given the security considerations much thought up till now?

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Chris Wright]

* David Wagner (daw@cs.berkeley.edu) wrote:
> Chris Wright  wrote:
> >It's already available via /proc w/out protection.  And ditto via posix
> >cpu timers.
> 
> If so, maybe that code should be fixed.  Where exactly in /proc would
> I find the getrusage() info of another process?

Just from /proc/[pid]/stat. (fs/proc/array.c::do_task_stat).

> Is there any argument
> that disclosing it to everyone is safe?  Or is it just that no one has
> ever given the security considerations much thought up till now?

I guess it keeps falling in the "too theoretical" category.  It can be
protected by policy, but default is open.

thanks,
-chris

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[David Wagner]

Chris Wright  wrote:
>/proc/[pid]/stat. (fs/proc/array.c::do_task_stat).
>
>> Is there any argument
>> that disclosing it to everyone is safe?  Or is it just that no one has
>> ever given the security considerations much thought up till now?
>
>I guess it keeps falling in the "too theoretical" category.  It can be
>protected by policy, but default is open.

Ahh, I see.  I had never looked at /proc/[pid]/stat carefully before.

Well, making /proc/[pid]/stat world-readable by default looks pretty
dubious to me.  There's all sorts of stuff there that I suspect should
not be revealed: EIP, stack pointer, stats on paging and swapping, and
so on.  I suspect that this is not at all safe.  Most crypto algorithms
tend to fall apart when you have side channels like this.

Maybe no one cares, because no one uses Linux in a multi-user setting
where users are motivated to attack each other or attack the system.
But baking this kind of "privilege escalation" vulnerability into the
kernel by default doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Alan Cox]

On Gwe, 2005-11-11 at 15:02 -0800, Chris Wright wrote:
> * Alan Cox (alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk) wrote:
> > On Gwe, 2005-11-11 at 23:38 +0100, Claudio Scordino wrote:
> > > +                if ((current->euid != tsk->euid) &&
> > > +                (current->euid != tsk->uid)) {
> > > +                        read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
> > > +                        return -EINVAL;
> > 
> > 
> > Would be -EPERM also wants a 'privilege' check. Not sure which would be
> > best here - CAP_SYS_ADMIN seems to be the 'default' used
> 
> It's already available via /proc w/out protection.  And ditto via posix
> cpu timers.

In which case the only comment I have is the one about accuracy - and
that is true for procfs too so will only come up if someone gets the
urge to use perfctr timers for precision resource management

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Claudio Scordino]

>
> In which case the only comment I have is the one about accuracy - and
> that is true for procfs too so will only come up if someone gets the
> urge to use perfctr timers for precision resource management

According to your comments, this the final patch. 

Should it be committed ?

         Claudio



diff --git a/kernel/sys.c b/kernel/sys.c
--- a/kernel/sys.c
+++ b/kernel/sys.c
@@ -1746,9 +1746,26 @@ int getrusage(struct task_struct *p, int

 asmlinkage long sys_getrusage(int who, struct rusage __user *ru)
 {
-       if (who != RUSAGE_SELF && who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN)
-               return -EINVAL;
-       return getrusage(current, who, ru);
+        if (who != RUSAGE_SELF && who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN) {
+                struct task_struct* tsk;
+                struct rusage r;
+                read_lock(&tasklist_lock);
+                tsk = find_task_by_pid(who);
+                if (tsk == NULL) {
+                        read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
+                        return -EINVAL;
+                }
+                if ((current->euid != tsk->euid) &&
+                (current->euid != tsk->uid) &&
+                (!capable(CAP_SYS_ADMIN))){
+                        read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
+                        return -EPERM;
+                }
+                k_getrusage(tsk, RUSAGE_SELF, &r);
+                read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
+                return copy_to_user(ru, &r, sizeof(r)) ? -EFAULT : 0;
+        } else
+                return getrusage(current, who, ru);
 }

 asmlinkage long sys_umask(int mask)

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[dean gaudet]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Claudio Scordino wrote:

> >
> > In which case the only comment I have is the one about accuracy - and
> > that is true for procfs too so will only come up if someone gets the
> > urge to use perfctr timers for precision resource management
> 
> According to your comments, this the final patch. 

this only lets you get RUSAGE_SELF data for the target... for many 
processes it's more important to get the RUSAGE_CHILDREN data... and 
really i'm having a hard time imagining a use for this code which on 
further inspection doesn't eventually blow up to the requirements of a 
proper accounting subsystem... (of which i understand there are two or 
three competining implementations in progress?)

do you have a use case for this new code?

-dean

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Chris Wright]

* dean gaudet (dean-list-linux-kernel@arctic.org) wrote:
> do you have a use case for this new code?

I'm with Dean.  What problem are you trying to solve?

thanks,
-chris

making makefile for 2.6 kernel

[anil dahiya]

--- Chris Wright <chrisw@osdl.org> wrote:

> * dean gaudet (dean-list-linux-kernel@arctic.org)
> wrote:
> > do you have a use case for this new code?
> 
> I'm with Dean.  What problem are you trying to
> solve?
> 
> thanks,
> -chris
> 
> --
> Kernelnewbies: Help each other learn about the Linux
> kernel.
> Archive:      
> http://mail.nl.linux.org/kernelnewbies/
> FAQ:           http://kernelnewbies.org/faq/
> 
> 



	
		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com

making makefile for 2.6 kernel

[anil dahiya]

Hi 
I want to makefile for my kernel module..
1.c 2.c 3.c files are places in /home/anil folder but
these files contain .h (hearder)files from 3 different
directory 1) /home/include 2) /root/incluent 3)
/opt/include

can u suggest me a makefile to generate a common
module target.ko using these .C and .h files.

Thanks in advance
Regards,
anil


		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com

Re: making makefile for 2.6 kernel

[Sam Ravnborg]

On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 07:16:52AM -0800, anil dahiya wrote:
> Hi 
> I want to makefile for my kernel module..
> 1.c 2.c 3.c files are places in /home/anil folder but
> these files contain .h (hearder)files from 3 different
> directory 1) /home/include 2) /root/incluent 3)
> /opt/include
> 
> can u suggest me a makefile to generate a common
> module target.ko using these .C and .h files.

Makefile
obj-m := foo.o
foo-y := 1.o 2.o 3.o

EXTRA_CFLGAS := -I/home/include -I/root/incluent -I/opt/include


And then build the module with:
make -C $KERNEL_SRC M=`pwd`

See Documentation/kbuild/makefiles.txt for reference.
Note: Kernel being pointed out must be a fully build kernel

	Sam

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Claudio Scordino]

On Saturday 12 November 2005 02:10, Chris Wright wrote:
> * dean gaudet (dean-list-linux-kernel@arctic.org) wrote:
> > do you have a use case for this new code?
>
> I'm with Dean.  What problem are you trying to solve?

I just want to improve getrusage to account for the case in which a server 
process needs to have usage information about client processes at run-time.
In this case RUSAGE_SELF is more important than RUSAGE_CHILDREN.
I think it would be an useful feature for some user-level applications.

At the beginning, I didn't want to propose any different prototype for the 
function, even if I think that a more general (and correct) one would be

      int getrusage(int who, struct rusage *usage, pid_t pid);

which accounts for all the situations we discussed so far.

However, I've added a more restrictive check (as asked by David) and the goto 
proposed by Hua. Is now the patch right ? Do you think that it's useful ?

Many thanks,

            Claudio


diff --git a/kernel/sys.c b/kernel/sys.c
--- a/kernel/sys.c
+++ b/kernel/sys.c
@@ -1746,9 +1746,29 @@ int getrusage(struct task_struct *p, int
 
 asmlinkage long sys_getrusage(int who, struct rusage __user *ru)
 {
- if (who != RUSAGE_SELF && who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN)
-  return -EINVAL;
- return getrusage(current, who, ru);
+        struct rusage r;
+        struct task_struct* tsk = current;
+        read_lock(&tasklist_lock);
+        if ((who != RUSAGE_SELF) && (who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN)) {
+                tsk = find_task_by_pid(who);
+                if ((tsk == NULL) || (who <=0)) 
+                        goto bad;
+                if (((current->uid != tsk->euid) ||
+                     (current->uid != tsk->suid) ||
+                     (current->uid != tsk->uid) ||
+                     (current->gid != tsk->egid) ||
+                     (current->gid != tsk->sgid) ||
+                     (current->gid != tsk->gid)) && !capable(CAP_SYS_PTRACE))
+                        goto bad;
+                who = RUSAGE_SELF;
+        }
+        k_getrusage(tsk, who, &r);
+        read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
+        return copy_to_user(ru, &r, sizeof(r)) ? -EFAULT : 0;
+
+ bad:
+        read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
+        return tsk ? -EPERM : -EINVAL;
 }
 
 asmlinkage long sys_umask(int mask)

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Claudio Scordino]

On Tuesday 15 November 2005 02:08, Peter Chubb wrote:
> >> You need to wrap this with a read_lock(&tasklist_lock) to be safe,
> >> I think.
>
> Claudio> Right. Probably this was the meaning also of Hua's
> Claudio> mail. Sorry, but I didn't get it immediately.
>
> Claudio> So, what if I do as follows ? Do you see any problem with
> Claudio> this solution ?
>
> You should probably restrict the ability to read a process's usage to
> a suitably privileged user -- i.e., effective uid same as the task's,
> or capable(CAP_SYS_RESOURCE) or maybe capable(CAP_SYS_ADMIN)

So, is CAP_SYS_PTRACE (as done in the patch below) not enough ?

Honestly, I don't see any problem in allowing any user to know usage 
information about _his_ processes...

Many thanks,

            Claudio

Signed-off-by: Claudio Scordino <cloud.of.andor@gmail.com>

diff --git a/kernel/sys.c b/kernel/sys.c
--- a/kernel/sys.c
+++ b/kernel/sys.c
@@ -1746,9 +1746,29 @@ int getrusage(struct task_struct *p, int
 
 asmlinkage long sys_getrusage(int who, struct rusage __user *ru)
 {
- if (who != RUSAGE_SELF && who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN)
-  return -EINVAL;
- return getrusage(current, who, ru);
+        struct rusage r;
+        struct task_struct* tsk = current;
+        read_lock(&tasklist_lock);
+        if ((who != RUSAGE_SELF) && (who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN)) {
+                tsk = find_task_by_pid(who);
+                if ((tsk == NULL) || (who <=0)) 
+                        goto bad;
+                if (((current->uid != tsk->euid) ||
+                     (current->uid != tsk->suid) ||
+                     (current->uid != tsk->uid) ||
+                     (current->gid != tsk->egid) ||
+                     (current->gid != tsk->sgid) ||
+                     (current->gid != tsk->gid)) && !capable(CAP_SYS_PTRACE))
+                        goto bad;
+                who = RUSAGE_SELF;
+        }
+        k_getrusage(tsk, who, &r);
+        read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
+        return copy_to_user(ru, &r, sizeof(r)) ? -EFAULT : 0;
+
+ bad:
+        read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
+        return tsk ? -EPERM : -EINVAL;
 }
 
 asmlinkage long sys_umask(int mask)

New getrusage

[Claudio Scordino]

Actually, I think that a better implementation of getrusage would be the 
following one, but it requires a (new) third parameter. That's why I didn't 
suggest it...

Many thanks,

            Claudio

Signed-off-by: Claudio Scordino <cloud.of.andor@gmail.com>

asmlinkage long sys_getrusage(int who, struct rusage __user *ru, pid_t pid)
{
 struct rusage r;
 struct task_struct* tsk = current;
 if ((pid < 0) || 
    ((who != RUSAGE_SELF) && (who != RUSAGE_CHILDREN))) 
  return -EINVAL;
 read_lock(&tasklist_lock);
 if (pid > 0) {
  tsk = find_task_by_pid(pid);
  if (tsk == NULL)
         goto bad; 
  if (((current->uid != tsk->euid) ||
     (current->uid != tsk->suid) ||
     (current->uid != tsk->uid) ||
     (current->gid != tsk->egid) ||
     (current->gid != tsk->sgid) ||
     (current->gid != tsk->gid)) && !capable(CAP_SYS_PTRACE))
   goto bad;
 }
 k_getrusage(tsk, who, &r);
 read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
 return copy_to_user(ru, &r, sizeof(r)) ? -EFAULT : 0;

 bad:
 read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
 return tsk ? -EPERM : -EINVAL;
}

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Claudio Scordino]

On Saturday 12 November 2005 00:23, Alan Cox wrote:
> On Gwe, 2005-11-11 at 23:38 +0100, Claudio Scordino wrote:
> > +                if ((current->euid != tsk->euid) &&
> > +                (current->euid != tsk->uid)) {
> > +                        read_unlock(&tasklist_lock);
> > +                        return -EINVAL;
>
> Would be -EPERM also wants a 'privilege' check. Not sure which would be
> best here - CAP_SYS_ADMIN seems to be the 'default' used

I would say -EPERM. Any other comment about the patch ?

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[David Wagner]

Claudio Scordino  wrote:
>So, is the following patch right ? I've added both the lock and the owner 
>check...

I think this patch is too permissive.  It lets me run a setuid-root
program and then call getrusage() on it.  That's not a good idea.
(I might, say, run /bin/su and then mount a timing or cache side-channel
attacks on its password hashing code.  That particular example might or
might not work, but I hope it illustrates my concern.)

Should you be using the same permission check that ptrace() does?
ptrace() is more restrictive than what you seemed to have in mind.
However, if ptrace() lets you attach to a process, then it's probably
pretty safe to let you call getrusage(), as you could have just used
ptrace() to read the process's entire memory image.

kernel/ptrace.c:ptrace_may_attach() might be relevant.

TOCTTOU vulnerabilities could be a problem.  If I understand correctly,
your locking code should take care of this, but you might want to
double-check, as I'm not very familiar with the kernel's locking scheme.

Re: [PATCH] getrusage sucks

[Peter Chubb]

>>>>> "Claudio" == Claudio Scordino <cloud.of.andor@gmail.com> writes:

>> You need to wrap this with a read_lock(&tasklist_lock) to be safe,
>> I think.
Claudio> Right. Probably this was the meaning also of Hua's
Claudio> mail. Sorry, but I didn't get it immediately.

Claudio> So, what if I do as follows ? Do you see any problem with
Claudio> this solution ?

You should probably restrict the ability to read a process's usage to
a suitably privileged user -- i.e., effective uid same as the task's,
or capable(CAP_SYS_RESOURCE) or maybe capable(CAP_SYS_ADMIN)

-- 
Dr Peter Chubb  http://www.gelato.unsw.edu.au  peterc AT gelato.unsw.edu.au
The technical we do immediately,  the political takes *forever*