Re: recommended mail clients [was] [PATCH] ati-agp suspend/resume support (try 2)

["Randy.Dunlap" <rdunlap@xenotime.net>]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 11:28:23 +0800 Michael Clark wrote:

> Peter Williams wrote:
> 
> > Randy.Dunlap wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:01:39 +0800 Michael Clark wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Peter Williams wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Michael Clark wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Lee Revell wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 20:03 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Monday 26 December 2005 17:54, Lee Revell wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 15:35 +0000, Alistair John Strachan wrote:
> >>>>>>>>  
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Monday 26 December 2005 14:38, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>     
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> [snip]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I use pine and evolution.  Pine is text based and great when I
> >>>>>>>>>> ssh into
> >>>>>>>>>> my machine to work.  Evolution is slow, but plays well with pine
> >>>>>>>>>> and it
> >>>>>>>>>> handles things needed for LKML very well. (the drop down menu
> >>>>>>>>>> "Normal"
> >>>>>>>>>> may be changed to "Preformat", which allows of inserting text
> >>>>>>>>>> files
> >>>>>>>>>> "as-is").
> >>>>>>>>>>       
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>> This is also the way to do it with Thunderbird. It will do the right
> >>>>> thing (and disables all formatting changes such as line wrapping
> >>>>> to the
> >>>>> inserted text) if you select 'Preformat' before pasting in a patch
> >>>>> - at
> >>>>> least my Thunderbird 1.0.7 does this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Dare I say it, KMail has also been doing the Right Thing for a
> >>>>>>>>> long time.
> >>>>>>>>> It will only line wrap things that you insert by typing; pastes
> >>>>>>>>> are left
> >>>>>>>>> untouched.
> >>>>>>>>>     
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It seems that of all the popular mail clients only Thunderbird has
> >>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>> problem.  AFAICT it's impossible to make it DTRT with inline
> >>>>>>>> patches and
> >>>>>>>> even if it is the fact that most users get it wrong points to a
> >>>>>>>> serious
> >>>>>>>> usability/UI issue.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Would a patch to add "Don't use Thunderbird/Mozilla Mail" to
> >>>>>>>> SubmittingPatches be accepted?  Then we can point the Mozilla
> >>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>> at it (they have shown zero interest in fixing the problem so far)
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> hopefully this will light a fire under someone.
> >>>>>>>>   
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Fundamentally the issue with Thunderbird is that it line-wraps
> >>>>>>> AFTER you compose an email, not during composition. I've never
> >>>>>>> understood how, or why this is useful to the end user, except for
> >>>>>>> composing HTML emails (which should be banned anyway).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Thunderbird will not linewrap anything that is inserted in
> >>>>> 'Preformat' mode.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thunderbird is Yet Another mailer that could have been a good piece
> >>>>>>> of software if it hadn't attempted to be a clone of Outlook Express
> >>>>>>> (defaulting to Top Posting, HTML composition, line wrapping
> >>>>>>> pastes).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It's the mindset; fixing Thunderbird is probably easy, but
> >>>>>>> convincing the Mozilla developers to include such "fixes" is
> >>>>>>> probably much harder.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Should be trivial to fix, when the user puts the editor into
> >>>>>> "Preformat"
> >>>>>> mode or inserts a text file you surround it with <pre> tags.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Fix the user behaviour you mean? Get them to select 'Preformat'
> >>>>> before
> >>>>> pasting patches into Thunderbird.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> In my thunderbird, the "Paste Without Formatting" mode seems to be
> >>>> continually grayed out (i.e. unavailable).  I couldn't find anything
> >>>> in the preferences that altered this situation.  What's the secret?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I'm selecting 'Preformat' in the email compose window and using regular
> >>> X Paste (middle button) - and it works for me (I can save the resulting
> >>> message to a .eml and diff it against the patch and it is perfect).
> >>> Perhaps the Debian/Sid Thunderbird has some patch? Don't know.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> so where is this 'Preformat' option?  I don't see it.
> >
> >
> > Nor me.
> >
> It is a drop down box in the Compose window just below the subject field
> on the left (intially says "Body Text").

However, if one has disabled "Compose messages in HTML format",
that drop-down list does not show up.
So does this generate an HTML email, using <preformat> or <tt> etc.?
If so, still bad.  I'll test it to myself.

> If you haven't got the rich text Compose enabled (not sure how you
> disable/enable this but it was an option in Mozilla Mail) you can hold
> down shift when you click 'Write'.
> 
> I'm running Debian/Sid Thunderbird 1.0.7 BTW.


---
~Randy