Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Bodo Eggert]

Al Boldi <a1426z@gawab.com> wrote:
> Alan Cox wrote:

>> > I once sent a patch to make libata a submenu of scsi.
>>
>> Which is wrong
>>
>> Nakked-by: Alan Cox <alan@redhat.com>
>>
>> The general comments about moving this stuff around and making it clearer
>> what sd/sr etc are nowdays are good but hiding libata under SCSI will
>> cause even more confusion than it cures
> 
> That's easy to fix:  just change the SCSI heading to include a libata hint.

I think you're fixing the wrong problem.

The real problem is hiding devices attached to some controlers between
one kind of the controllers. This has been correct whern they were bus-
specific, but since they are now shared by three busses, they should get
their own menu called "(S)ATA/USB/SCSI attached devices" - or whatever a
native speaker would suggest.

Besides that, if I imagine being a semi-novice and searching for IDE
support, I would have a hard time finding the IDE menu, and asuming
PATA to be non-experimental one day, I'd have a hard time deciding
which of the drivers to use. Maybe the SATA-drivers should be put
above the old PATA menu, amd maybe both of the titles should include
"(E)IDE"?

BTW: For CONFIG_ATA, you can replace
"(!M32R && !M68K || BROKEN) && (!SUN4 || BROKEN)"
with "(!M32R && !M68K && !SUN4 || BROKEN)"

BTW2: I think that menu needs very much reordering. "Block devices" should
be renamed to "Other block devices", AGP support should belong into graphics
support, and many other things I don't even know need to be pushed around.
Even ordering by name would be better than the current situation! But it
should be done by someone knowing these devices, I could only do a part.
-- 
Top 100 things you don't want the sysadmin to say:
14. Any more trouble from you and your account gets moved to the 750

Friß, Spammer: NxeCk-fw6@5.7eggert.dyndns.org

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Stefan Richter]

Bodo Eggert wrote:
> The real problem is hiding devices attached to some controlers between
> one kind of the controllers. This has been correct whern they were bus-
> specific, but since they are now shared by three busses, they should get
> their own menu called "(S)ATA/USB/SCSI attached devices" - or whatever a
> native speaker would suggest.

A side note:  SCSI is not a bus.  It is an architecture and a set of
implementation standards; including command set standards, transport
protocol standards and interconnect standards for a whole lot of
different applications, transports, and interconnects, and not all of
the latter are actual buses.  The oldest of SCSI interconnects, SCSI
Parallel Interconnect alias SPI, is often mistaken for all of SCSI even
though its role is diminishing.  There is much more:
http://www.t10.org/scsi-3.htm

You are right though that Linux' SCSI command set drivers and SCSI core
are used for non-SCSI transports too, and this is not very well
reflected by the configuration menu layout.  (But is there an ideal menu
layout?  I'm sure there isn't.)
-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-=-=== =--= -=---
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Randy Dunlap]

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 18:52:35 +0200 Bodo Eggert wrote:

> BTW2: I think that menu needs very much reordering. "Block devices" should
> be renamed to "Other block devices", AGP support should belong into graphics
> support, and many other things I don't even know need to be pushed around.
> Even ordering by name would be better than the current situation! But it
> should be done by someone knowing these devices, I could only do a part.

how's this?

for 2.6.16-rc4:  consolidated graphics config:
http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=114101236918589&w=2

---
~Randy
*** Remember to use Documentation/SubmitChecklist when testing your code ***

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Al Boldi]

Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
>> Ok, but that's not the most common situaties. What I'm suggesting is a
>> warning or a please note popup. Not neccessarily an error or refusing to
>> continue thing.
>
>What IMHO makes sense is changing all references to SCSI CDROM,
>SCSI DISK etc. to just CDROM, DISK, and changing SCSI (menu) to
>something like MASS STORAGE.

I once sent a patch to make libata a submenu of scsi.

[PATCH] libata Kconfig: Allow libata to be selected from within the SCSI submenu
From: Al Boldi <a1426z@gawab.com>
To: linux-ide@vger.kernel.org
CC: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Date: 08/01/07 07:22 am

Move libata Kconfig sourcing from the drivers Kconfig into the SCSI Kconfig.

This allows the user to quickly select additional disk/tape/cdrom support 
from within the same menu.

Signed-off-by: Al Boldi <a1426z@gawab.com>
Cc: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
---
--- a/drivers/Kconfig   2007-05-02 17:25:30.000000000 +0300
+++ b/drivers/Kconfig   2007-08-01 06:33:13.000000000 +0300
@@ -22,8 +22,6 @@ source "drivers/ide/Kconfig"
 
 source "drivers/scsi/Kconfig"
 
-source "drivers/ata/Kconfig"
-
 source "drivers/cdrom/Kconfig"
 
 source "drivers/md/Kconfig"
--- a/drivers/scsi/Kconfig      2007-07-09 06:38:37.000000000 +0300
+++ b/drivers/scsi/Kconfig      2007-08-01 06:46:42.000000000 +0300
@@ -7,6 +7,8 @@ config RAID_ATTRS
        ---help---
          Provides RAID
 
+source "drivers/ata/Kconfig"
+
 config SCSI
        tristate "SCSI device support"
        depends on BLOCK



Thanks!

--
Al

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Alan Cox]

> I once sent a patch to make libata a submenu of scsi.

Which is wrong

Nakked-by: Alan Cox <alan@redhat.com>

The general comments about moving this stuff around and making it clearer
what sd/sr etc are nowdays are good but hiding libata under SCSI will
cause even more confusion than it cures

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Al Boldi]

Alan Cox wrote:
> > I once sent a patch to make libata a submenu of scsi.
>
> Which is wrong
>
> Nakked-by: Alan Cox <alan@redhat.com>
>
> The general comments about moving this stuff around and making it clearer
> what sd/sr etc are nowdays are good but hiding libata under SCSI will
> cause even more confusion than it cures

That's easy to fix:  just change the SCSI heading to include a libata hint.

Something like this:

[PATCH] libata Kconfig: Allow libata to be selected from within the SCSI submenu

Move libata Kconfig sourcing from the drivers Kconfig into the SCSI Kconfig,
and change the SCSI menu heading to indicate libata submenu inclusion.

This allows the user to quickly select additional disk/tape/cdrom support 
from within the same menu.

Signed-off-by: Al Boldi <a1426z@gawab.com>
Cc: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
---
--- a/drivers/Kconfig   2007-05-02 17:25:30.000000000 +0300
+++ b/drivers/Kconfig   2007-08-01 06:33:13.000000000 +0300
@@ -22,8 +22,6 @@ source "drivers/ide/Kconfig"
 
 source "drivers/scsi/Kconfig"
 
-source "drivers/ata/Kconfig"
-
 source "drivers/cdrom/Kconfig"
 
 source "drivers/md/Kconfig"
--- a/drivers/scsi/Kconfig      2007-07-09 06:38:37.000000000 +0300
+++ b/drivers/scsi/Kconfig      2007-08-01 06:46:42.000000000 +0300
@@ -7,6 +7,8 @@ config RAID_ATTRS
        ---help---
          Provides RAID
 
+source "drivers/ata/Kconfig"
+
 config SCSI
-       tristate "SCSI device support"
+       tristate "SCSI and Libata device support"
        depends on BLOCK



Thanks!

--
Al

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Jan Engelhardt]

On Sep 8 2007 17:03, Al Boldi wrote:
>Alan Cox wrote:
>> > I once sent a patch to make libata a submenu of scsi.
>>
>> Which is wrong
>>
>> Nakked-by: Alan Cox <alan@redhat.com>
>>
>> The general comments about moving this stuff around and making it clearer
>> what sd/sr etc are nowdays are good but hiding libata under SCSI will
>> cause even more confusion than it cures
>
>That's easy to fix:  just change the SCSI heading to include a libata hint.

Let's not. I am perfectly fine with how things currently are, plus optionally
Stefan Richter's suggestion.


	Jan
-- 

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Al Boldi]

Al Boldi wrote:
> Alan Cox wrote:
> > > I once sent a patch to make libata a submenu of scsi.
> >
> > Which is wrong
> >
> > Nakked-by: Alan Cox <alan@redhat.com>
> >
> > The general comments about moving this stuff around and making it
> > clearer what sd/sr etc are nowdays are good but hiding libata under SCSI
> > will cause even more confusion than it cures
>
> That's easy to fix:  just change the SCSI heading to include a libata
> hint.
>
> Something like this:
>
> [PATCH] libata Kconfig: Allow libata to be selected from within the SCSI
> submenu
>
> Move libata Kconfig sourcing from the drivers Kconfig into the SCSI
> Kconfig, and change the SCSI menu heading to indicate libata submenu
> inclusion.
>
> This allows the user to quickly select additional disk/tape/cdrom support
> from within the same menu.
>
> Signed-off-by: Al Boldi <a1426z@gawab.com>
> Cc: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
> ---
> --- a/drivers/Kconfig   2007-05-02 17:25:30.000000000 +0300
> +++ b/drivers/Kconfig   2007-08-01 06:33:13.000000000 +0300
> @@ -22,8 +22,6 @@ source "drivers/ide/Kconfig"
>
>  source "drivers/scsi/Kconfig"
>
> -source "drivers/ata/Kconfig"
> -
>  source "drivers/cdrom/Kconfig"
>
>  source "drivers/md/Kconfig"
> --- a/drivers/scsi/Kconfig      2007-07-09 06:38:37.000000000 +0300
> +++ b/drivers/scsi/Kconfig      2007-08-01 06:46:42.000000000 +0300
> @@ -7,6 +7,8 @@ config RAID_ATTRS
>         ---help---
>           Provides RAID
>
> +source "drivers/ata/Kconfig"
> +
>  config SCSI
> -       tristate "SCSI device support"
> +       tristate "SCSI and Libata device support"
>         depends on BLOCK

Actually, this should have read:

--- a/drivers/scsi/Kconfig	2007-07-09 06:38:37.000000000 +0300
+++ a/drivers/scsi/Kconfig	2007-09-09 06:48:11.000000000 +0300
@@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
-menu "SCSI device support"
+menu "SCSI and Libata (SATA/PATA/new IDE) device support"
 
 config RAID_ATTRS
        tristate "RAID Transport Class"
@@ -7,6 +7,8 @@ config RAID_ATTRS
        ---help---
          Provides RAID
 
+source "drivers/ata/Kconfig"
+
 config SCSI
        tristate "SCSI device support"
        depends on BLOCK


I would think that with this minimal change it would make it crystal clear, 
to anybody who can read, where to enable libata support, and at the same 
time not to forget/overlook sd/sr selection.


Thanks!

--
Al

sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Folkert van Heusden]

Hi,

Maybe it is a nice enhancement for make menuconfig to more explicitly
give a pop-up or so when someone selects for example a sata controller
while no 'scsi-disk' support was selected?


Folkert van Heusden

-- 
Multi tail barnamaj mowahib li mora9abat attasjilat wa nataij awamir
al 7asoub. damj, talwin, mora9abat attarchi7 wa ila akhirih.
http://www.vanheusden.com/multitail/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Jan Engelhardt]

On Sep 7 2007 14:48, Folkert van Heusden wrote:
>
>Maybe it is a nice enhancement for make menuconfig to more explicitly
>give a pop-up or so when someone selects for example a sata controller
>while no 'scsi-disk' support was selected?

Having no sd support is perfectly valid. Imagine a diskless boot
with only sr support.

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Folkert van Heusden]

> >Maybe it is a nice enhancement for make menuconfig to more explicitly
> >give a pop-up or so when someone selects for example a sata controller
> >while no 'scsi-disk' support was selected?
> 
> Having no sd support is perfectly valid. Imagine a diskless boot
> with only sr support.

Ok, but that's not the most common situaties. What I'm suggesting is a
warning or a please note popup. Not neccessarily an error or refusing to
continue thing.


Folkert van Heusden

-- 
www.vanheusden.com/multitail - win een vlaai van multivlaai! zorg
ervoor dat multitail opgenomen wordt in Fedora Core, AIX, Solaris of
HP/UX en win een vlaai naar keuze
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Krzysztof Halasa]

Folkert van Heusden <folkert@vanheusden.com> writes:

> Ok, but that's not the most common situaties. What I'm suggesting is a
> warning or a please note popup. Not neccessarily an error or refusing to
> continue thing.

What IMHO makes sense is changing all references to SCSI CDROM,
SCSI DISK etc. to just CDROM, DISK, and changing SCSI (menu) to
something like MASS STORAGE.
-- 
Krzysztof Halasa

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Jan Engelhardt]

On Sep 7 2007 21:38, Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
>> Ok, but that's not the most common situaties. What I'm suggesting is a
>> warning or a please note popup. Not neccessarily an error or refusing to
>> continue thing.
>
>What IMHO makes sense is changing all references to SCSI CDROM,
>SCSI DISK etc. to just CDROM, DISK, and changing SCSI (menu) to
>something like MASS STORAGE.

There is still too much SCSI in it IMO :-)

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Jan Engelhardt]

On Sep 8 2007 01:02, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
>On Sep 7 2007 21:38, Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
>>> Ok, but that's not the most common situaties. What I'm suggesting is a
>>> warning or a please note popup. Not neccessarily an error or refusing to
>>> continue thing.
>>
>>What IMHO makes sense is changing all references to SCSI CDROM,
>>SCSI DISK etc. to just CDROM, DISK, and changing SCSI (menu) to
>>something like MASS STORAGE.
>
>There is still too much SCSI in it IMO :-)

And to explain that point: SCSI device name inquiry is limited to 16 bytes.
That may be a limitation of SCSI (as in: the protocol), but the SCSI
*subsystem* should not impose such a tight limit.


	Jan
-- 

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Randy Dunlap]

On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:48:00 +0200 Folkert van Heusden wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Maybe it is a nice enhancement for make menuconfig to more explicitly
> give a pop-up or so when someone selects for example a sata controller
> while no 'scsi-disk' support was selected?

I know that it's difficult to get people to read docs & help text,
and maybe it is needed in more places, but CONFIG_ATA (SATA/PATA)
help text says:

  NOTE: ATA enables basic SCSI support; *however*,
  'SCSI disk support', 'SCSI tape support', or
  'SCSI CDROM support' may also be needed,
  depending on your hardware configuration.


A popup makes some sense, but I don't know if menuconfig knows how to
do popup warnings... and it needs to be done for all *configs,
not just menuconfig.

---
~Randy
*** Remember to use Documentation/SubmitChecklist when testing your code ***

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Folkert van Heusden]

> > Maybe it is a nice enhancement for make menuconfig to more explicitly
> > give a pop-up or so when someone selects for example a sata controller
> > while no 'scsi-disk' support was selected?
> 
> I know that it's difficult to get people to read docs & help text,
> and maybe it is needed in more places, but CONFIG_ATA (SATA/PATA)
> help text says:
>   NOTE: ATA enables basic SCSI support; *however*,
>   'SCSI disk support', 'SCSI tape support', or
>   'SCSI CDROM support' may also be needed,
>   depending on your hardware configuration.

Yes but that would mean that you have to open the help for each item
that you add.

> A popup makes some sense, but I don't know if menuconfig knows how to
> do popup warnings... and it needs to be done for all *configs,
> not just menuconfig.

Maybe add a new type?


Folkert van Heusden

-- 
MultiTail na wan makriki wrokosani fu tan luku den logfile nanga san
den commando spiti puru. Piki puru spesrutu sani, wroko nanga difreti
kroru, tja kon makandra, nanga wan lo moro.
http://www.vanheusden.com/multitail/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Stefan Richter]

Folkert van Heusden wrote:
>> I know that it's difficult to get people to read docs & help text,
>> and maybe it is needed in more places, but CONFIG_ATA (SATA/PATA)
>> help text says:
>>   NOTE: ATA enables basic SCSI support; *however*,
>>   'SCSI disk support', 'SCSI tape support', or
>>   'SCSI CDROM support' may also be needed,
>>   depending on your hardware configuration.
> 
> Yes but that would mean that you have to open the help for each item
> that you add.
> 
>> A popup makes some sense, but I don't know if menuconfig knows how to
>> do popup warnings... and it needs to be done for all *configs,
>> not just menuconfig.
> 
> Maybe add a new type?

How about

comment "Note: 'SCSI disk support' is required for SATA/PATA HDDs!"
	depends on ATA && !BLK_DEV_SD

-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-=-=== =--= --===
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Folkert van Heusden]

> >> I know that it's difficult to get people to read docs & help text,
> >> and maybe it is needed in more places, but CONFIG_ATA (SATA/PATA)
> >> help text says:
> >>   NOTE: ATA enables basic SCSI support; *however*,
> >>   'SCSI disk support', 'SCSI tape support', or
> >>   'SCSI CDROM support' may also be needed,
> >>   depending on your hardware configuration.
> > 
> > Yes but that would mean that you have to open the help for each item
> > that you add.
> > 
> >> A popup makes some sense, but I don't know if menuconfig knows how to
> >> do popup warnings... and it needs to be done for all *configs,
> >> not just menuconfig.
> > 
> > Maybe add a new type?
> 
> How about
> comment "Note: 'SCSI disk support' is required for SATA/PATA HDDs!"
> 	depends on ATA && !BLK_DEV_SD

Yes! Maybe create some status-line at the bottom of the screen in which
these hints scrollby. Like powertop does.


Folkert van Heusden

-- 
MultiTail är en flexibel redskap för att fälja logfilar, utför av
commandoer, filtrera, ge färg, sammanfoga, o.s.v. följa.
http://www.vanheusden.com/multitail/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Stefan Richter]

(added Cc linux-ide)

Folkert van Heusden wrote:
>>>> A popup makes some sense, but I don't know if menuconfig knows how to
>>>> do popup warnings... and it needs to be done for all *configs,
>>>> not just menuconfig.
>>> Maybe add a new type?
>> How about
>> comment "Note: 'SCSI disk support' is required for SATA/PATA HDDs!"
>> 	depends on ATA && !BLK_DEV_SD
> 
> Yes! Maybe create some status-line at the bottom of the screen in which
> these hints scrollby. Like powertop does.

'comment' is already supported by make {menu,x,g}config and AFAIK by
make oldconfig too.  It is not effective in make oldconfig though
because it will scroll off the screen quickly.

I am not a friend of 'select', but maybe the following actually helps.
I didn't follow all of this and previous related discussions, so I guess
somebody else suggested something like this before:


# drivers/ata/Kconfig

config ATA
	[...]

comment "Controller drivers"

[...low-level drivers go here...]

comment "Storage device drivers"

config ATA_SD
	tristate "SATA/PATA HDD support (via SCSI disk support)"
	depends on ATA
	select BLK_DEV_SD
	help
	  'SCSI disk support' is required to access SATA HDDs.  It is
	  also necessary for parallel ATA (IDE) HDDs if you use the
	  experimental parallel ATA option.

	  You can say Y or M here to select SCSI disk support, or you
	  can do so in the 'SCSI device support' section.

[...ditto for CD/DVD-ROMs, tapes, and generic support...]
-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-=-=== =--= -=---
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Jan Engelhardt]

On Sep 8 2007 09:05, Stefan Richter wrote:
>config ATA
>	[...]
>
>comment "Controller drivers"
>
>[...low-level drivers go here...]
>
>comment "Storage device drivers"
>
>config ATA_SD
>	tristate "SATA/PATA HDD support (via SCSI disk support)"
>	depends on ATA
>	select BLK_DEV_SD
>	help
>	  'SCSI disk support' is required to access SATA HDDs.  It is
>	  also necessary for parallel ATA (IDE) HDDs if you use the
>	  experimental parallel ATA option.
>
>	  You can say Y or M here to select SCSI disk support, or you
>	  can do so in the 'SCSI device support' section.
>
>[...ditto for CD/DVD-ROMs, tapes, and generic support...]

And what uses ATA_SD, or is the user supposed to manually enable it?



	Jan
-- 

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Stefan Richter]

Jan Engelhardt wrote:
> On Sep 8 2007 09:05, Stefan Richter wrote:
>> config ATA_SD
>> 	tristate "SATA/PATA HDD support (via SCSI disk support)"
>> 	depends on ATA
>> 	select BLK_DEV_SD
>> 	help
>> 	  'SCSI disk support' is required to access SATA HDDs.  It is
[...]
>>	  You can say Y or M here to select SCSI disk support, or you
>>	  can do so in the 'SCSI device support' section.
[...]
> And what uses ATA_SD, or is the user supposed to manually enable it?

It is merely there to produce the prompt which people asked for.
CONFIG_ATA_SD (or CONFIG_ATA_BLK_DEV_SD or whatever) won't turn up in
any Makefile or source code.

Note, I'm not fond of 'select' nor of dummy Kconfig variables.  Plus I
can personally live very well with the current solution (sd_mod et al
are mentioned in the help text at CONFIG_ATA).  That's why I posted only
the example instead of a complete patch.
-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-=-=== =--= -=---
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Randy Dunlap]

Stefan Richter wrote:
> (added Cc linux-ide)
> 
> Folkert van Heusden wrote:
>>>>> A popup makes some sense, but I don't know if menuconfig knows how to
>>>>> do popup warnings... and it needs to be done for all *configs,
>>>>> not just menuconfig.
>>>> Maybe add a new type?
>>> How about
>>> comment "Note: 'SCSI disk support' is required for SATA/PATA HDDs!"
>>> 	depends on ATA && !BLK_DEV_SD
>> Yes! Maybe create some status-line at the bottom of the screen in which
>> these hints scrollby. Like powertop does.
> 
> 'comment' is already supported by make {menu,x,g}config and AFAIK by
> make oldconfig too.  It is not effective in make oldconfig though
> because it will scroll off the screen quickly.
> 
> I am not a friend of 'select', but maybe the following actually helps.
> I didn't follow all of this and previous related discussions, so I guess
> somebody else suggested something like this before:
> 

The problem with 'select' here is that it will enable BLK_DEV_SD,
but if SCSI is not enabled, it will not become enabled -- i.e.,
select does not follow the dependency chain.  So usually the
kernel will not build unless SCSI is enabled by the user.

> # drivers/ata/Kconfig
> 
> config ATA
> 	[...]
> 
> comment "Controller drivers"
> 
> [...low-level drivers go here...]
> 
> comment "Storage device drivers"
> 
> config ATA_SD
> 	tristate "SATA/PATA HDD support (via SCSI disk support)"
> 	depends on ATA
> 	select BLK_DEV_SD
> 	help
> 	  'SCSI disk support' is required to access SATA HDDs.  It is
> 	  also necessary for parallel ATA (IDE) HDDs if you use the
> 	  experimental parallel ATA option.
> 
> 	  You can say Y or M here to select SCSI disk support, or you
> 	  can do so in the 'SCSI device support' section.
> 
> [...ditto for CD/DVD-ROMs, tapes, and generic support...]


-- 
~Randy
*** Remember to use Documentation/SubmitChecklist when testing your code ***

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Stefan Richter]

Randy Dunlap wrote:
> Stefan Richter wrote:
>> I am not a friend of 'select', but maybe the following actually helps.
...
> The problem with 'select' here is that it will enable BLK_DEV_SD,
> but if SCSI is not enabled, it will not become enabled -- i.e.,
> select does not follow the dependency chain.  So usually the
> kernel will not build unless SCSI is enabled by the user.
...
>> config ATA_SD
>>     tristate "SATA/PATA HDD support (via SCSI disk support)"
>>     depends on ATA
>>     select BLK_DEV_SD
>>     help
>>       'SCSI disk support' is required to access SATA HDDs.  It is
...

I checked the dependencies.  ATA depends on SCSI (actually, selects
SCSI), so all is well.  Otherwise I would have added more dependencies
to ATA_SD.
-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-=-=== =--= -=---
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Randy Dunlap]

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 18:44:46 +0200 Stefan Richter wrote:

> Randy Dunlap wrote:
> > Stefan Richter wrote:
> >> I am not a friend of 'select', but maybe the following actually helps.
> ...
> > The problem with 'select' here is that it will enable BLK_DEV_SD,
> > but if SCSI is not enabled, it will not become enabled -- i.e.,
> > select does not follow the dependency chain.  So usually the
> > kernel will not build unless SCSI is enabled by the user.
> ...
> >> config ATA_SD
> >>     tristate "SATA/PATA HDD support (via SCSI disk support)"
> >>     depends on ATA
> >>     select BLK_DEV_SD
> >>     help
> >>       'SCSI disk support' is required to access SATA HDDs.  It is
> ...
> 
> I checked the dependencies.  ATA depends on SCSI (actually, selects
> SCSI), so all is well.  Otherwise I would have added more dependencies
> to ATA_SD.

Ah, that's good, then.  Thanks.

---
~Randy
*** Remember to use Documentation/SubmitChecklist when testing your code ***

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Stefan Richter]

Randy Dunlap wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 18:44:46 +0200 Stefan Richter wrote:
>> Randy Dunlap wrote:
>>> The problem with 'select' here is that it will enable BLK_DEV_SD,
>>> but if SCSI is not enabled, it will not become enabled -- i.e.,
>>> select does not follow the dependency chain.  So usually the
>>> kernel will not build unless SCSI is enabled by the user.
...
>> I checked the dependencies.  ATA depends on SCSI (actually, selects
>> SCSI), so all is well.  Otherwise I would have added more dependencies
>> to ATA_SD.
> 
> Ah, that's good, then.

Not completely though.  Whenever a 'select' is inserted into the
dependency graph, the whole thing becomes more fragile WRT future changes.
-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-=-=== =--= -=---
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Sam Ravnborg]

On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 08:35:22AM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:48:00 +0200 Folkert van Heusden wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Maybe it is a nice enhancement for make menuconfig to more explicitly
> > give a pop-up or so when someone selects for example a sata controller
> > while no 'scsi-disk' support was selected?
> 
> I know that it's difficult to get people to read docs & help text,
> and maybe it is needed in more places, but CONFIG_ATA (SATA/PATA)
> help text says:
> 
>   NOTE: ATA enables basic SCSI support; *however*,
>   'SCSI disk support', 'SCSI tape support', or
>   'SCSI CDROM support' may also be needed,
>   depending on your hardware configuration.
> 
> 
> A popup makes some sense, but I don't know if menuconfig knows how to
> do popup warnings... and it needs to be done for all *configs,
> not just menuconfig.
For menuconfig I would much rather see that it had an additional
window at the bottom displaying the help text for the active menu line.

Implementing support for a pop-up in the kconfig language seems to be a bit
off the purpose of the kconfig language.

	Sam

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Helge Hafting]

Randy Dunlap wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:48:00 +0200 Folkert van Heusden wrote:
>
>   
>> Hi,
>>
>> Maybe it is a nice enhancement for make menuconfig to more explicitly
>> give a pop-up or so when someone selects for example a sata controller
>> while no 'scsi-disk' support was selected?
>>     
>
> I know that it's difficult to get people to read docs & help text,
> and maybe it is needed in more places, but CONFIG_ATA (SATA/PATA)
> help text says:
>
>   NOTE: ATA enables basic SCSI support; *however*,
>   'SCSI disk support', 'SCSI tape support', or
>   'SCSI CDROM support' may also be needed,
>   depending on your hardware configuration.
>
>
> A popup makes some sense, but I don't know if menuconfig knows how to
> do popup warnings... and it needs to be done for all *configs,
> not just menuconfig.
>   
A popup hardly ever makes sense - popups generally are a
bad user interface. The user will have to dismiss the popup -
every time - whether he needs the warning or not.

But feel free to print a warning somewhere, such as a
status line. The warning itself is useful, but not something
we will have to dismiss in order to go on with the job.

Helge Hafting

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Goswin von Brederlow]

Helge Hafting <helge.hafting@aitel.hist.no> writes:

> Randy Dunlap wrote:
>> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:48:00 +0200 Folkert van Heusden wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Maybe it is a nice enhancement for make menuconfig to more explicitly
>>> give a pop-up or so when someone selects for example a sata controller
>>> while no 'scsi-disk' support was selected?
>>>
>>
>> I know that it's difficult to get people to read docs & help text,
>> and maybe it is needed in more places, but CONFIG_ATA (SATA/PATA)
>> help text says:
>>
>>   NOTE: ATA enables basic SCSI support; *however*,
>>   'SCSI disk support', 'SCSI tape support', or
>>   'SCSI CDROM support' may also be needed,
>>   depending on your hardware configuration.

Could one duplicate the configure options for scsi disk/tape/cdrom at
that place? The text should then probably read SCSI/SATA disk support
in both places.

MfG
        Goswin

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Stefan Richter]

Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> Helge Hafting <helge.hafting@aitel.hist.no> writes:
>> Randy Dunlap wrote:
>>>   NOTE: ATA enables basic SCSI support; *however*,
>>>   'SCSI disk support', 'SCSI tape support', or
>>>   'SCSI CDROM support' may also be needed,
>>>   depending on your hardware configuration.
> 
> Could one duplicate the configure options for scsi disk/tape/cdrom at
> that place?

Yes, e.g. like in http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/9/8/9.

> The text should then probably read SCSI/SATA disk support in both places.

Or rather than duplicating the menu items for the same options, split
the SCSI high-level options out into a top-level menu and adjust the
wording of the prompts.  http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/9/14/217

(top level)
menu "Storage (core and SCSI commands)"
	config SCSI
		tristate "Storage support (core and SCSI commands)"
	config BLK_DEV_SD
		tristate "Harddisks and other Direct access devices"
	config CHR_DEV_ST
		tristate "Tape drives"
	config CHR_DEV_OSST
		tristate "SCSI OnStream SC-x0 tape support"
	config BLK_DEV_SR
		tristate "CD-ROMs, DVD-ROMs"
	...

menu "Device Drivers"
	...
	menu "SCSI device support"
		config RAID_ATTRS
		config SCSI_TGT
		menu "SCSI Transports"
			...
		menuconfig SCSI_LOWLEVEL
			bool "SCSI low-level drivers"
			...

-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-=-=== =--= -===-
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Andi Kleen]

Folkert van Heusden <folkert@vanheusden.com> writes:

> Hi,
> 
> Maybe it is a nice enhancement for make menuconfig to more explicitly
> give a pop-up or so when someone selects for example a sata controller
> while no 'scsi-disk' support was selected?

This has also bitten me one or two times. A reasonable way would
be to just select SD automatically for !EMBEDDED

Here's a patch:

-Andi

Select BLK_DEV_SD for all SCSI/libata drivers

This avoid a common user mistake.


Signed-off-by: Andi Kleen <ak@suse.de>

Index: linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/ata/Kconfig
===================================================================
--- linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc.orig/drivers/ata/Kconfig
+++ linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/ata/Kconfig
@@ -42,6 +42,7 @@ config ATA_ACPI
 
 config SATA_AHCI
 	tristate "AHCI SATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for AHCI Serial ATA.
@@ -50,6 +51,7 @@ config SATA_AHCI
 
 config SATA_SVW
 	tristate "ServerWorks Frodo / Apple K2 SATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for Broadcom/Serverworks/Apple K2
@@ -59,6 +61,7 @@ config SATA_SVW
 
 config ATA_PIIX
 	tristate "Intel ESB, ICH, PIIX3, PIIX4 PATA/SATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for ICH5/6/7/8 Serial ATA
@@ -69,6 +72,7 @@ config ATA_PIIX
 
 config SATA_MV
 	tristate "Marvell SATA support (HIGHLY EXPERIMENTAL)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the Marvell Serial ATA family.
@@ -78,6 +82,7 @@ config SATA_MV
 
 config SATA_NV
 	tristate "NVIDIA SATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for NVIDIA Serial ATA.
@@ -86,6 +91,7 @@ config SATA_NV
 
 config PDC_ADMA
 	tristate "Pacific Digital ADMA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for Pacific Digital ADMA controllers
@@ -94,6 +100,7 @@ config PDC_ADMA
 
 config SATA_QSTOR
 	tristate "Pacific Digital SATA QStor support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for Pacific Digital Serial ATA QStor.
@@ -102,6 +109,7 @@ config SATA_QSTOR
 
 config SATA_PROMISE
 	tristate "Promise SATA TX2/TX4 support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for Promise Serial ATA TX2/TX4.
@@ -110,6 +118,7 @@ config SATA_PROMISE
 
 config SATA_SX4
 	tristate "Promise SATA SX4 support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for Promise Serial ATA SX4.
@@ -118,6 +127,7 @@ config SATA_SX4
 
 config SATA_SIL
 	tristate "Silicon Image SATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for Silicon Image Serial ATA.
@@ -126,6 +136,7 @@ config SATA_SIL
 
 config SATA_SIL24
 	tristate "Silicon Image 3124/3132 SATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for Silicon Image 3124/3132 Serial ATA.
@@ -134,6 +145,7 @@ config SATA_SIL24
 
 config SATA_SIS
 	tristate "SiS 964/965/966/180 SATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	select PATA_SIS
 	help
@@ -145,6 +157,7 @@ config SATA_SIS
 
 config SATA_ULI
 	tristate "ULi Electronics SATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for ULi Electronics SATA.
@@ -153,6 +166,7 @@ config SATA_ULI
 
 config SATA_VIA
 	tristate "VIA SATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for VIA Serial ATA.
@@ -161,6 +175,7 @@ config SATA_VIA
 
 config SATA_VITESSE
 	tristate "VITESSE VSC-7174 / INTEL 31244 SATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for Vitesse VSC7174 and Intel 31244 Serial ATA.
@@ -169,12 +184,14 @@ config SATA_VITESSE
 
 config SATA_INIC162X
 	tristate "Initio 162x SATA support (HIGHLY EXPERIMENTAL)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for Initio 162x Serial ATA.
 
 config PATA_ALI
 	tristate "ALi PATA support (Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the ALi ATA interfaces
@@ -184,6 +201,7 @@ config PATA_ALI
 
 config PATA_AMD
 	tristate "AMD/NVidia PATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the AMD and NVidia PATA
@@ -193,6 +211,7 @@ config PATA_AMD
 
 config PATA_ARTOP
 	tristate "ARTOP 6210/6260 PATA support (Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for ARTOP PATA controllers.
@@ -201,6 +220,7 @@ config PATA_ARTOP
 
 config PATA_ATIIXP
 	tristate "ATI PATA support (Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the ATI ATA interfaces
@@ -210,6 +230,7 @@ config PATA_ATIIXP
 
 config PATA_CMD640_PCI
 	tristate "CMD640 PCI PATA support (Very Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the CMD640 PCI IDE
@@ -220,6 +241,7 @@ config PATA_CMD640_PCI
 
 config PATA_CMD64X
 	tristate "CMD64x PATA support (Very Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI&& EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the CMD64x series chips
@@ -229,6 +251,7 @@ config PATA_CMD64X
 
 config PATA_CS5520
 	tristate "CS5510/5520 PATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the Cyrix 5510/5520
@@ -238,6 +261,7 @@ config PATA_CS5520
 
 config PATA_CS5530
 	tristate "CS5530 PATA support (Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the Cyrix/NatSemi/AMD CS5530
@@ -247,6 +271,7 @@ config PATA_CS5530
 
 config PATA_CS5535
 	tristate "CS5535 PATA support (Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && X86 && !X86_64 && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the NatSemi/AMD CS5535
@@ -256,6 +281,7 @@ config PATA_CS5535
 
 config PATA_CYPRESS
 	tristate "Cypress CY82C693 PATA support (Very Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the Cypress/Contaq CY82C693
@@ -265,6 +291,7 @@ config PATA_CYPRESS
 
 config PATA_EFAR
 	tristate "EFAR SLC90E66 support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the EFAR SLC90E66
@@ -274,6 +301,7 @@ config PATA_EFAR
 
 config ATA_GENERIC
 	tristate "Generic ATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for generic BIOS configured
@@ -283,6 +311,7 @@ config ATA_GENERIC
 
 config PATA_HPT366
 	tristate "HPT 366/368 PATA support (Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the HPT 366 and 368
@@ -292,6 +321,7 @@ config PATA_HPT366
 
 config PATA_HPT37X
 	tristate "HPT 370/370A/371/372/374/302 PATA support (Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the majority of the later HPT
@@ -301,6 +331,7 @@ config PATA_HPT37X
 
 config PATA_HPT3X2N
 	tristate "HPT 372N/302N PATA support (Very Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the N variant HPT PATA
@@ -310,6 +341,7 @@ config PATA_HPT3X2N
 
 config PATA_HPT3X3
 	tristate "HPT 343/363 PATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the HPT 343/363
@@ -327,6 +359,7 @@ config PATA_HPT3X3_DMA
 
 config PATA_ISAPNP
 	tristate "ISA Plug and Play PATA support (Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on EXPERIMENTAL && ISAPNP
 	help
 	  This option enables support for ISA plug & play ATA
@@ -336,6 +369,7 @@ config PATA_ISAPNP
 
 config PATA_IT821X
 	tristate "IT8211/2 PATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the ITE 8211 and 8212
@@ -346,6 +380,7 @@ config PATA_IT821X
 
 config PATA_IT8213
 	tristate "IT8213 PATA support (Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the ITE 821 PATA
@@ -355,6 +390,7 @@ config PATA_IT8213
 
 config PATA_JMICRON
 	tristate "JMicron PATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  Enable support for the JMicron IDE controller, via the new
@@ -364,6 +400,7 @@ config PATA_JMICRON
 
 config PATA_LEGACY
 	tristate "Legacy ISA PATA support (Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ISA && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for ISA/VLB bus legacy PATA
@@ -373,6 +410,7 @@ config PATA_LEGACY
 
 config PATA_TRIFLEX
 	tristate "Compaq Triflex PATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  Enable support for the Compaq 'Triflex' IDE controller as found
@@ -382,6 +420,7 @@ config PATA_TRIFLEX
 
 config PATA_MARVELL
 	tristate "Marvell PATA support via legacy mode"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables limited support for the Marvell 88SE6145 ATA
@@ -391,6 +430,7 @@ config PATA_MARVELL
 
 config PATA_MPC52xx
 	tristate "Freescale MPC52xx SoC internal IDE"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PPC_MPC52xx
 	help
 	  This option enables support for integrated IDE controller
@@ -400,6 +440,7 @@ config PATA_MPC52xx
 
 config PATA_MPIIX
 	tristate "Intel PATA MPIIX support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for MPIIX PATA support.
@@ -408,6 +449,7 @@ config PATA_MPIIX
 
 config PATA_OLDPIIX
 	tristate "Intel PATA old PIIX support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for early PIIX PATA support.
@@ -416,6 +458,7 @@ config PATA_OLDPIIX
 
 config PATA_NETCELL
 	tristate "NETCELL Revolution RAID support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the Netcell Revolution RAID
@@ -425,6 +468,7 @@ config PATA_NETCELL
 
 config PATA_NS87410
 	tristate "Nat Semi NS87410 PATA support (Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the National Semiconductor
@@ -434,6 +478,7 @@ config PATA_NS87410
 
 config PATA_OPTI
 	tristate "OPTI621/6215 PATA support (Very Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables full PIO support for the early Opti ATA
@@ -443,6 +488,7 @@ config PATA_OPTI
 
 config PATA_OPTIDMA
 	tristate "OPTI FireStar PATA support (Very Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables DMA/PIO support for the later OPTi
@@ -462,6 +508,7 @@ config PATA_PCMCIA
 
 config PATA_PDC_OLD
 	tristate "Older Promise PATA controller support (Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the Promise 20246, 20262, 20263,
@@ -471,12 +518,14 @@ config PATA_PDC_OLD
 
 config PATA_QDI
 	tristate "QDI VLB PATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ISA
 	help
 	  Support for QDI 6500 and 6580 PATA controllers on VESA local bus.
 
 config PATA_RADISYS
 	tristate "RADISYS 82600 PATA support (Very Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the RADISYS 82600
@@ -486,6 +535,7 @@ config PATA_RADISYS
 
 config PATA_RZ1000
 	tristate "PC Tech RZ1000 PATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables basic support for the PC Tech RZ1000/1
@@ -495,6 +545,7 @@ config PATA_RZ1000
 
 config PATA_SC1200
 	tristate "SC1200 PATA support (Very Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the NatSemi/AMD SC1200 SoC
@@ -504,6 +555,7 @@ config PATA_SC1200
 
 config PATA_SERVERWORKS
 	tristate "SERVERWORKS OSB4/CSB5/CSB6/HT1000 PATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the Serverworks OSB4/CSB5/CSB6 and
@@ -513,6 +565,7 @@ config PATA_SERVERWORKS
 
 config PATA_PDC2027X
 	tristate "Promise PATA 2027x support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for Promise PATA pdc20268 to pdc20277 host adapters.
@@ -521,6 +574,7 @@ config PATA_PDC2027X
 
 config PATA_SIL680
 	tristate "CMD / Silicon Image 680 PATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for CMD / Silicon Image 680 PATA.
@@ -529,6 +583,7 @@ config PATA_SIL680
 
 config PATA_SIS
 	tristate "SiS PATA support (Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  This option enables support for SiS PATA controllers
@@ -537,6 +592,7 @@ config PATA_SIS
 
 config PATA_VIA
 	tristate "VIA PATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the VIA PATA interfaces
@@ -546,6 +602,7 @@ config PATA_VIA
 
 config PATA_WINBOND
 	tristate "Winbond SL82C105 PATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	help
 	  This option enables support for SL82C105 PATA devices found in the
@@ -555,6 +612,7 @@ config PATA_WINBOND
 
 config PATA_WINBOND_VLB
 	tristate "Winbond W83759A VLB PATA support (Experimental)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ISA && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  Support for the Winbond W83759A controller on Vesa Local Bus
@@ -562,6 +620,7 @@ config PATA_WINBOND_VLB
 
 config PATA_PLATFORM
 	tristate "Generic platform device PATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on EMBEDDED || ARCH_RPC
 	help
 	  This option enables support for generic directly connected ATA
@@ -571,6 +630,7 @@ config PATA_PLATFORM
 
 config PATA_ICSIDE
 	tristate "Acorn ICS PATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ARM && ARCH_ACORN
 	help
 	  On Acorn systems, say Y here if you wish to use the ICS PATA
@@ -579,6 +639,7 @@ config PATA_ICSIDE
 
 config PATA_IXP4XX_CF
 	tristate "IXP4XX Compact Flash support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ARCH_IXP4XX
 	help
 	  This option enables support for a Compact Flash connected on
@@ -589,6 +650,7 @@ config PATA_IXP4XX_CF
 
 config PATA_SCC
 	tristate "Toshiba's Cell Reference Set IDE support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && PPC_CELLEB
 	help
 	  This option enables support for the built-in IDE controller on
Index: linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/Kconfig
===================================================================
--- linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc.orig/drivers/scsi/Kconfig
+++ linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/Kconfig
@@ -305,6 +305,7 @@ config ISCSI_TCP
 	select CRYPTO_MD5
 	select CRYPTO_CRC32C
 	select SCSI_ISCSI_ATTRS
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	help
 	 The iSCSI Driver provides a host with the ability to access storage
 	 through an IP network. The driver uses the iSCSI protocol to transport
@@ -325,6 +326,7 @@ config ISCSI_TCP
 config SGIWD93_SCSI
 	tristate "SGI WD93C93 SCSI Driver"
 	depends on SGI_IP22 && SCSI
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
   	help
 	  If you have a Western Digital WD93 SCSI controller on
 	  an SGI MIPS system, say Y.  Otherwise, say N.
@@ -332,16 +334,19 @@ config SGIWD93_SCSI
 config SCSI_DECNCR
 	tristate "DEC NCR53C94 Scsi Driver"
 	depends on MACH_DECSTATION && SCSI && TC
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	help
 	  Say Y here to support the NCR53C94 SCSI controller chips on IOASIC
 	  based TURBOchannel DECstations and TURBOchannel PMAZ-A cards.
 
 config SCSI_DECSII
 	tristate "DEC SII Scsi Driver"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on MACH_DECSTATION && SCSI && 32BIT
 
 config BLK_DEV_3W_XXXX_RAID
 	tristate "3ware 5/6/7/8xxx ATA-RAID support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	help
 	  3ware is the only hardware ATA-Raid product in Linux to date.
@@ -355,6 +360,7 @@ config BLK_DEV_3W_XXXX_RAID
 
 config SCSI_3W_9XXX
 	tristate "3ware 9xxx SATA-RAID support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	help
 	  This driver supports the 9000 series 3ware SATA-RAID cards.
@@ -366,6 +372,7 @@ config SCSI_3W_9XXX
 
 config SCSI_7000FASST
 	tristate "7000FASST SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ISA && SCSI && ISA_DMA_API
 	help
 	  This driver supports the Western Digital 7000 SCSI host adapter
@@ -377,6 +384,7 @@ config SCSI_7000FASST
 
 config SCSI_ACARD
 	tristate "ACARD SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	help
 	  This driver supports the ACARD SCSI host adapter.
@@ -387,6 +395,7 @@ config SCSI_ACARD
 config SCSI_AHA152X
 	tristate "Adaptec AHA152X/2825 support"
 	depends on ISA && SCSI && !64BIT
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	---help---
 	  This is a driver for the AHA-1510, AHA-1520, AHA-1522, and AHA-2825
@@ -402,6 +411,7 @@ config SCSI_AHA152X
 
 config SCSI_AHA1542
 	tristate "Adaptec AHA1542 support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ISA && SCSI && ISA_DMA_API
 	---help---
 	  This is support for a SCSI host adapter.  It is explained in section
@@ -416,6 +426,7 @@ config SCSI_AHA1542
 
 config SCSI_AHA1740
 	tristate "Adaptec AHA1740 support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on EISA && SCSI
 	---help---
 	  This is support for a SCSI host adapter.  It is explained in section
@@ -429,6 +440,7 @@ config SCSI_AHA1740
 
 config SCSI_AACRAID
 	tristate "Adaptec AACRAID support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on SCSI && PCI
 	help
 	  This driver supports a variety of Dell, HP, Adaptec, IBM and
@@ -443,6 +455,7 @@ source "drivers/scsi/aic7xxx/Kconfig.aic
 
 config SCSI_AIC7XXX_OLD
 	tristate "Adaptec AIC7xxx support (old driver)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on (ISA || EISA || PCI ) && SCSI
 	help
 	  WARNING This driver is an older aic7xxx driver and is no longer
@@ -487,6 +500,7 @@ source "drivers/scsi/aic94xx/Kconfig"
 # All the I2O code and drivers do not seem to be 64bit safe.
 config SCSI_DPT_I2O
 	tristate "Adaptec I2O RAID support "
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on !64BIT && SCSI && PCI && VIRT_TO_BUS
 	help
 	  This driver supports all of Adaptec's I2O based RAID controllers as 
@@ -501,6 +515,7 @@ config SCSI_ADVANSYS
 	depends on SCSI
 	depends on ISA || EISA || PCI
 	depends on BROKEN || X86_32
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	help
 	  This is a driver for all SCSI host adapters manufactured by
 	  AdvanSys. It is documented in the kernel source in
@@ -512,6 +527,7 @@ config SCSI_ADVANSYS
 config SCSI_IN2000
 	tristate "Always IN2000 SCSI support"
 	depends on ISA && SCSI
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	help
 	  This is support for an ISA bus SCSI host adapter.  You'll find more
 	  information in <file:Documentation/scsi/in2000.txt>. If it doesn't work
@@ -524,6 +540,7 @@ config SCSI_IN2000
 config SCSI_ARCMSR
 	tristate "ARECA ARC11X0[PCI-X]/ARC12X0[PCI-EXPRESS] SATA-RAID support"
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	help
 	  This driver supports all of ARECA's SATA RAID controller cards.
 	  This is an ARECA-maintained driver by Erich Chen.
@@ -540,6 +557,7 @@ source "drivers/scsi/megaraid/Kconfig.me
 config SCSI_HPTIOP
 	tristate "HighPoint RocketRAID 3xxx Controller support"
 	depends on SCSI && PCI
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	help
 	  This option enables support for HighPoint RocketRAID 3xxx
 	  controllers.
@@ -549,6 +567,7 @@ config SCSI_HPTIOP
 
 config SCSI_BUSLOGIC
 	tristate "BusLogic SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on (PCI || ISA || MCA) && SCSI && ISA_DMA_API && VIRT_TO_BUS
 	---help---
 	  This is support for BusLogic MultiMaster and FlashPoint SCSI Host
@@ -563,6 +582,7 @@ config SCSI_BUSLOGIC
 config SCSI_OMIT_FLASHPOINT
 	bool "Omit FlashPoint support"
 	depends on SCSI_BUSLOGIC
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	help
 	  This option allows you to omit the FlashPoint support from the
 	  BusLogic SCSI driver. The FlashPoint SCCB Manager code is
@@ -573,6 +593,7 @@ config SCSI_DMX3191D
 	tristate "DMX3191D SCSI support"
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	help
 	  This is support for Domex DMX3191D SCSI Host Adapters.
 
@@ -583,6 +604,7 @@ config SCSI_DTC3280
 	tristate "DTC3180/3280 SCSI support"
 	depends on ISA && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	help
 	  This is support for DTC 3180/3280 SCSI Host Adapters.  Please read
 	  the SCSI-HOWTO, available from
@@ -595,6 +617,7 @@ config SCSI_DTC3280
 config SCSI_EATA
 	tristate "EATA ISA/EISA/PCI (DPT and generic EATA/DMA-compliant boards) support"
 	depends on (ISA || EISA || PCI) && SCSI && ISA_DMA_API
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	---help---
 	  This driver supports all EATA/DMA-compliant SCSI host adapters.  DPT
 	  ISA and all EISA I/O addresses are probed looking for the "EATA"
@@ -656,6 +679,7 @@ config SCSI_EATA_PIO
 
 config SCSI_FUTURE_DOMAIN
 	tristate "Future Domain 16xx SCSI/AHA-2920A support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on (ISA || PCI) && SCSI
 	---help---
 	  This is support for Future Domain's 16-bit SCSI host adapters
@@ -675,6 +699,7 @@ config SCSI_FUTURE_DOMAIN
 
 config SCSI_FD_MCS
 	tristate "Future Domain MCS-600/700 SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on MCA_LEGACY && SCSI
 	---help---
 	  This is support for Future Domain MCS 600/700 MCA SCSI adapters.
@@ -688,6 +713,7 @@ config SCSI_FD_MCS
 
 config SCSI_GDTH
 	tristate "Intel/ICP (former GDT SCSI Disk Array) RAID Controller support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on (ISA || EISA || PCI) && SCSI && ISA_DMA_API
 	---help---
 	  Formerly called GDT SCSI Disk Array Controller Support.
@@ -702,6 +728,7 @@ config SCSI_GDTH
 
 config SCSI_GENERIC_NCR5380
 	tristate "Generic NCR5380/53c400 SCSI PIO support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ISA && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	---help---
@@ -722,6 +749,7 @@ config SCSI_GENERIC_NCR5380
 
 config SCSI_GENERIC_NCR5380_MMIO
 	tristate "Generic NCR5380/53c400 SCSI MMIO support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ISA && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	---help---
@@ -748,6 +776,7 @@ config SCSI_GENERIC_NCR53C400
 
 config SCSI_IBMMCA
 	tristate "IBMMCA SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on MCA && SCSI
 	---help---
 	  This is support for the IBM SCSI adapter found in many of the PS/2
@@ -818,6 +847,7 @@ config IBMMCA_SCSI_DEV_RESET
 
 config SCSI_IPS
 	tristate "IBM ServeRAID support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	---help---
 	  This is support for the IBM ServeRAID hardware RAID controllers.
@@ -831,6 +861,7 @@ config SCSI_IPS
 
 config SCSI_IBMVSCSI
 	tristate "IBM Virtual SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PPC_PSERIES || PPC_ISERIES
 	help
 	  This is the IBM POWER Virtual SCSI Client
@@ -840,6 +871,7 @@ config SCSI_IBMVSCSI
 
 config SCSI_IBMVSCSIS
 	tristate "IBM Virtual SCSI Server support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PPC_PSERIES && SCSI_TGT && SCSI_SRP
 	help
 	  This is the SRP target driver for IBM pSeries virtual environments.
@@ -854,6 +886,7 @@ config SCSI_IBMVSCSIS
 
 config SCSI_INITIO
 	tristate "Initio 9100U(W) support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	help
 	  This is support for the Initio 91XXU(W) SCSI host adapter.  Please
@@ -865,6 +898,7 @@ config SCSI_INITIO
 
 config SCSI_INIA100
 	tristate "Initio INI-A100U2W support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	help
 	  This is support for the Initio INI-A100U2W SCSI host adapter.
@@ -876,6 +910,7 @@ config SCSI_INIA100
 
 config SCSI_PPA
 	tristate "IOMEGA parallel port (ppa - older drives)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on SCSI && PARPORT_PC
 	---help---
 	  This driver supports older versions of IOMEGA's parallel port ZIP
@@ -903,6 +938,7 @@ config SCSI_PPA
 
 config SCSI_IMM
 	tristate "IOMEGA parallel port (imm - newer drives)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on SCSI && PARPORT_PC
 	---help---
 	  This driver supports newer versions of IOMEGA's parallel port ZIP
@@ -959,6 +995,7 @@ config SCSI_IZIP_SLOW_CTR
 
 config SCSI_NCR53C406A
 	tristate "NCR53c406a SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ISA && SCSI
 	help
 	  This is support for the NCR53c406a SCSI host adapter.  For user
@@ -971,6 +1008,7 @@ config SCSI_NCR53C406A
 
 config SCSI_NCR_D700
 	tristate "NCR Dual 700 MCA SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on MCA && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -983,6 +1021,7 @@ config SCSI_NCR_D700
 
 config SCSI_LASI700
 	tristate "HP Lasi SCSI support for 53c700/710"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on GSC && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -992,6 +1031,7 @@ config SCSI_LASI700
 
 config SCSI_SNI_53C710
 	tristate "SNI RM SCSI support for 53c710"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on SNI_RM && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	select 53C700_LE_ON_BE
@@ -1006,6 +1046,7 @@ config 53C700_LE_ON_BE
 
 config SCSI_STEX
 	tristate "Promise SuperTrak EX Series support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	---help---
 	  This driver supports Promise SuperTrak EX series storage controllers.
@@ -1023,6 +1064,7 @@ config 53C700_BE_BUS
 
 config SCSI_SYM53C8XX_2
 	tristate "SYM53C8XX Version 2 SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	---help---
@@ -1090,6 +1132,7 @@ config SCSI_SYM53C8XX_MMIO
 
 config SCSI_IPR
 	tristate "IBM Power Linux RAID adapter support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI && ATA
 	select FW_LOADER
 	---help---
@@ -1117,6 +1160,7 @@ config SCSI_IPR_DUMP
 
 config SCSI_ZALON
 	tristate "Zalon SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on GSC && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -1128,6 +1172,7 @@ config SCSI_ZALON
 
 config SCSI_NCR_Q720
 	tristate "NCR Quad 720 MCA SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on MCA && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -1227,6 +1272,7 @@ config SCSI_NCR53C8XX_NO_DISCONNECT
 
 config SCSI_MCA_53C9X
 	tristate "NCR MCA 53C9x SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on MCA_LEGACY && SCSI && BROKEN_ON_SMP
 	help
 	  Some MicroChannel machines, notably the NCR 35xx line, use a SCSI
@@ -1238,6 +1284,7 @@ config SCSI_MCA_53C9X
 
 config SCSI_PAS16
 	tristate "PAS16 SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ISA && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	---help---
@@ -1263,6 +1310,7 @@ config SCSI_PSI240I
 
 config SCSI_QLOGIC_FAS
 	tristate "Qlogic FAS SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ISA && SCSI
 	---help---
 	  This is a driver for the ISA, VLB, and PCMCIA versions of the Qlogic
@@ -1291,6 +1339,7 @@ config SCSI_QLOGIC_FC_FIRMWARE
 
 config SCSI_QLOGIC_1280
 	tristate "Qlogic QLA 1240/1x80/1x160 SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	help
 	  Say Y if you have a QLogic ISP1240/1x80/1x160 SCSI host adapter.
@@ -1300,6 +1349,7 @@ config SCSI_QLOGIC_1280
 
 config SCSI_QLOGICPTI
 	tristate "PTI Qlogic, ISP Driver"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on SBUS && SCSI
 	help
 	  This driver supports SBUS SCSI controllers from PTI or QLogic. These
@@ -1315,6 +1365,7 @@ source "drivers/scsi/qla4xxx/Kconfig"
 
 config SCSI_LPFC
 	tristate "Emulex LightPulse Fibre Channel Support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	select SCSI_FC_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -1323,6 +1374,7 @@ config SCSI_LPFC
 
 config SCSI_SEAGATE
 	tristate "Seagate ST-02 and Future Domain TMC-8xx SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on X86 && ISA && SCSI
 	---help---
 	  These are 8-bit SCSI controllers; the ST-01 is also supported by
@@ -1337,6 +1389,7 @@ config SCSI_SEAGATE
 # definitely looks not 64bit safe:
 config SCSI_SIM710
 	tristate "Simple 53c710 SCSI support (Compaq, NCR machines)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on (EISA || MCA) && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	---help---
@@ -1346,6 +1399,7 @@ config SCSI_SIM710
 
 config SCSI_SYM53C416
 	tristate "Symbios 53c416 SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ISA && SCSI
 	---help---
 	  This is support for the sym53c416 SCSI host adapter, the SCSI
@@ -1364,6 +1418,7 @@ config SCSI_SYM53C416
 
 config SCSI_DC395x
 	tristate "Tekram DC395(U/UW/F) and DC315(U) SCSI support (EXPERIMENTAL)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	---help---
 	  This driver supports PCI SCSI host adapters based on the ASIC
@@ -1379,6 +1434,7 @@ config SCSI_DC395x
 
 config SCSI_DC390T
 	tristate "Tekram DC390(T) and Am53/79C974 SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	---help---
 	  This driver supports PCI SCSI host adapters based on the Am53C974A
@@ -1395,6 +1451,7 @@ config SCSI_DC390T
 
 config SCSI_T128
 	tristate "Trantor T128/T128F/T228 SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ISA && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	---help---
@@ -1411,6 +1468,7 @@ config SCSI_T128
 
 config SCSI_U14_34F
 	tristate "UltraStor 14F/34F support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ISA && SCSI && ISA_DMA_API
 	---help---
 	  This is support for the UltraStor 14F and 34F SCSI-2 host adapters.
@@ -1460,6 +1518,7 @@ config SCSI_U14_34F_MAX_TAGS
 
 config SCSI_ULTRASTOR
 	tristate "UltraStor SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on X86 && ISA && SCSI
 	---help---
 	  This is support for the UltraStor 14F, 24F and 34F SCSI-2 host
@@ -1477,6 +1536,7 @@ config SCSI_ULTRASTOR
 
 config SCSI_NSP32
 	tristate "Workbit NinjaSCSI-32Bi/UDE support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI && !64BIT
 	help
 	  This is support for the Workbit NinjaSCSI-32Bi/UDE PCI/Cardbus
@@ -1501,6 +1561,7 @@ config SCSI_DEBUG
 
 config SCSI_MESH
 	tristate "MESH (Power Mac internal SCSI) support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PPC32 && PPC_PMAC && SCSI
 	help
 	  Many Power Macintoshes and clones have a MESH (Macintosh Enhanced
@@ -1555,6 +1616,7 @@ config JAZZ_ESP
 
 config A3000_SCSI
 	tristate "A3000 WD33C93A support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on AMIGA && SCSI
 	help
 	  If you have an Amiga 3000 and have SCSI devices connected to the
@@ -1565,6 +1627,7 @@ config A3000_SCSI
 
 config A2091_SCSI
 	tristate "A2091/A590 WD33C93A support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ZORRO && SCSI
 	help
 	  If you have a Commodore A2091 SCSI controller, say Y. Otherwise,
@@ -1575,6 +1638,7 @@ config A2091_SCSI
 
 config GVP11_SCSI
 	tristate "GVP Series II WD33C93A support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ZORRO && SCSI
 	---help---
 	  If you have a Great Valley Products Series II SCSI controller,
@@ -1588,6 +1652,7 @@ config GVP11_SCSI
 
 config CYBERSTORM_SCSI
 	tristate "CyberStorm SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ZORRO && SCSI
 	help
 	  If you have an Amiga with an original (MkI) Phase5 Cyberstorm
@@ -1596,6 +1661,7 @@ config CYBERSTORM_SCSI
 
 config CYBERSTORMII_SCSI
 	tristate "CyberStorm Mk II SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ZORRO && SCSI
 	help
 	  If you have an Amiga with a Phase5 Cyberstorm MkII accelerator board
@@ -1604,6 +1670,7 @@ config CYBERSTORMII_SCSI
 
 config BLZ2060_SCSI
 	tristate "Blizzard 2060 SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ZORRO && SCSI
 	help
 	  If you have an Amiga with a Phase5 Blizzard 2060 accelerator board
@@ -1612,6 +1679,7 @@ config BLZ2060_SCSI
 
 config BLZ1230_SCSI
 	tristate "Blizzard 1230IV/1260 SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ZORRO && SCSI
 	help
 	  If you have an Amiga 1200 with a Phase5 Blizzard 1230IV or Blizzard
@@ -1620,6 +1688,7 @@ config BLZ1230_SCSI
 
 config FASTLANE_SCSI
 	tristate "Fastlane SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ZORRO && SCSI
 	help
 	  If you have the Phase5 Fastlane Z3 SCSI controller, or plan to use
@@ -1627,6 +1696,7 @@ config FASTLANE_SCSI
 
 config SCSI_A4000T
 	tristate "A4000T NCR53c710 SCSI support (EXPERIMENTAL)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on AMIGA && SCSI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -1638,6 +1708,7 @@ config SCSI_A4000T
 
 config SCSI_ZORRO7XX
 	tristate "Zorro NCR53c710 SCSI support (EXPERIMENTAL)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ZORRO && SCSI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -1654,6 +1725,7 @@ config SCSI_ZORRO7XX
 
 config OKTAGON_SCSI
 	tristate "BSC Oktagon SCSI support (EXPERIMENTAL)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ZORRO && SCSI && EXPERIMENTAL
 	help
 	  If you have the BSC Oktagon SCSI disk controller for the Amiga, say
@@ -1663,6 +1735,7 @@ config OKTAGON_SCSI
 
 config ATARI_SCSI
 	tristate "Atari native SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ATARI && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	---help---
@@ -1715,6 +1788,7 @@ config MAC_SCSI
 
 config SCSI_MAC_ESP
 	tristate "Macintosh NCR53c9[46] SCSI"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on MAC && SCSI
 	help
 	  This is the NCR 53c9x SCSI controller found on most of the 68040
@@ -1735,6 +1809,7 @@ config MVME147_SCSI
 
 config MVME16x_SCSI
 	tristate "NCR53C710 SCSI driver for MVME16x"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on MVME16x && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -1744,6 +1819,7 @@ config MVME16x_SCSI
 
 config BVME6000_SCSI
 	tristate "NCR53C710 SCSI driver for BVME6000"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on BVME6000 && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -1753,6 +1829,7 @@ config BVME6000_SCSI
 
 config SUN3_SCSI
 	tristate "Sun3 NCR5380 SCSI"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on SUN3 && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -1771,6 +1848,7 @@ config SUN3X_ESP
 
 config SCSI_SUNESP
 	tristate "Sparc ESP Scsi Driver"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on SBUS && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -1782,6 +1860,7 @@ config SCSI_SUNESP
 
 config ZFCP
 	tristate "FCP host bus adapter driver for IBM eServer zSeries"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on S390 && QDIO && SCSI
 	select SCSI_FC_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -1796,6 +1875,7 @@ config ZFCP
 
 config SCSI_SRP
 	tristate "SCSI RDMA Protocol helper library"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on SCSI && PCI
 	select SCSI_TGT
 	help
Index: linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/aic7xxx/Kconfig.aic79xx
===================================================================
--- linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc.orig/drivers/scsi/aic7xxx/Kconfig.aic79xx
+++ linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/aic7xxx/Kconfig.aic79xx
@@ -4,6 +4,7 @@
 #
 config SCSI_AIC79XX
 	tristate "Adaptec AIC79xx U320 support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
Index: linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/aic7xxx/Kconfig.aic7xxx
===================================================================
--- linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc.orig/drivers/scsi/aic7xxx/Kconfig.aic7xxx
+++ linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/aic7xxx/Kconfig.aic7xxx
@@ -4,6 +4,7 @@
 #
 config SCSI_AIC7XXX
 	tristate "Adaptec AIC7xxx Fast -> U160 support (New Driver)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on (PCI || EISA) && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	---help---
Index: linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/aic94xx/Kconfig
===================================================================
--- linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc.orig/drivers/scsi/aic94xx/Kconfig
+++ linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/aic94xx/Kconfig
@@ -26,6 +26,7 @@
 
 config SCSI_AIC94XX
 	tristate "Adaptec AIC94xx SAS/SATA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI
 	select SCSI_SAS_LIBSAS
 	select FW_LOADER
Index: linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/arm/Kconfig
===================================================================
--- linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc.orig/drivers/scsi/arm/Kconfig
+++ linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/arm/Kconfig
@@ -3,6 +3,7 @@
 #
 config SCSI_ACORNSCSI_3
 	tristate "Acorn SCSI card (aka30) support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ARCH_ACORN && SCSI && BROKEN
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -32,6 +33,7 @@ config SCSI_ACORNSCSI_SYNC
 
 config SCSI_ARXESCSI
 	tristate "ARXE SCSI support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ARCH_ACORN && SCSI
 	help
 	  Around 1991, Arxe Systems Limited released a high density floppy
@@ -44,6 +46,7 @@ config SCSI_ARXESCSI
 
 config SCSI_CUMANA_2
 	tristate "CumanaSCSI II support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ARCH_ACORN && SCSI
 	help
 	  This enables support for the Cumana SCSI II card. If you have an
@@ -51,6 +54,7 @@ config SCSI_CUMANA_2
 
 config SCSI_EESOXSCSI
 	tristate "EESOX support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ARCH_ACORN && SCSI
 	help
 	  This enables support for the EESOX SCSI card. If you have an Acorn
@@ -58,6 +62,7 @@ config SCSI_EESOXSCSI
 
 config SCSI_POWERTECSCSI
 	tristate "PowerTec support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ARCH_ACORN && SCSI
 	help
 	  This enables support for the Powertec SCSI card on Acorn systems. If
@@ -68,6 +73,7 @@ comment "The following drivers are not f
 
 config SCSI_CUMANA_1
 	tristate "CumanaSCSI I support (EXPERIMENTAL)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ARCH_ACORN && EXPERIMENTAL && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -76,6 +82,7 @@ config SCSI_CUMANA_1
 
 config SCSI_ECOSCSI
 	tristate "EcoScsi support (EXPERIMENTAL)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on ARCH_ACORN && EXPERIMENTAL && (ARCH_ARC || ARCH_A5K) && SCSI
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
Index: linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/megaraid/Kconfig.megaraid
===================================================================
--- linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc.orig/drivers/scsi/megaraid/Kconfig.megaraid
+++ linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/megaraid/Kconfig.megaraid
@@ -6,6 +6,7 @@ config MEGARAID_NEWGEN
 
 config MEGARAID_MM
 	tristate "LSI Logic Management Module (New Driver)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI && MEGARAID_NEWGEN
 	help
 	Management Module provides ioctl, sysfs support for LSI Logic
@@ -16,6 +17,7 @@ config MEGARAID_MM
 
 config MEGARAID_MAILBOX
 	tristate "LSI Logic MegaRAID Driver (New Driver)"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI && MEGARAID_MM
 	help
 	List of supported controllers
@@ -77,6 +79,7 @@ config MEGARAID_LEGACY
 
 config MEGARAID_SAS
 	tristate "LSI Logic MegaRAID SAS RAID Module"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	help
 	Module for LSI Logic's SAS based RAID controllers.
Index: linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/pcmcia/Kconfig
===================================================================
--- linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc.orig/drivers/scsi/pcmcia/Kconfig
+++ linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/pcmcia/Kconfig
@@ -10,6 +10,7 @@ if SCSI_LOWLEVEL_PCMCIA && SCSI && PCMCI
 
 config PCMCIA_AHA152X
 	tristate "Adaptec AHA152X PCMCIA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on !64BIT
 	select SCSI_SPI_ATTRS
 	help
@@ -21,6 +22,7 @@ config PCMCIA_AHA152X
 
 config PCMCIA_FDOMAIN
 	tristate "Future Domain PCMCIA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	help
 	  Say Y here if you intend to attach this type of PCMCIA SCSI host
 	  adapter to your computer.
@@ -30,6 +32,7 @@ config PCMCIA_FDOMAIN
 
 config PCMCIA_NINJA_SCSI
 	tristate "NinjaSCSI-3 / NinjaSCSI-32Bi (16bit) PCMCIA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on !64BIT
 	help
 	  If you intend to attach this type of PCMCIA SCSI host adapter to
@@ -64,6 +67,7 @@ config PCMCIA_NINJA_SCSI
 
 config PCMCIA_QLOGIC
 	tristate "Qlogic PCMCIA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	help
 	  Say Y here if you intend to attach this type of PCMCIA SCSI host
 	  adapter to your computer.
@@ -73,6 +77,7 @@ config PCMCIA_QLOGIC
 
 config PCMCIA_SYM53C500
 	tristate "Symbios 53c500 PCMCIA support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	help
 	  Say Y here if you have a New Media Bus Toaster or other PCMCIA
 	  SCSI adapter based on the Symbios 53c500 controller.
Index: linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/qla2xxx/Kconfig
===================================================================
--- linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc.orig/drivers/scsi/qla2xxx/Kconfig
+++ linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/qla2xxx/Kconfig
@@ -1,5 +1,6 @@
 config SCSI_QLA_FC
 	tristate "QLogic QLA2XXX Fibre Channel Support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI
 	select SCSI_FC_ATTRS
 	select FW_LOADER
Index: linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/qla4xxx/Kconfig
===================================================================
--- linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc.orig/drivers/scsi/qla4xxx/Kconfig
+++ linux-2.6.23-rc1-misc/drivers/scsi/qla4xxx/Kconfig
@@ -1,5 +1,6 @@
 config SCSI_QLA_ISCSI
 	tristate "QLogic ISP4XXX host adapter family support"
+	select BLK_DEV_SD if !EMBEDDED
 	depends on PCI && SCSI && NET
 	select SCSI_ISCSI_ATTRS
 	---help---

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Randy Dunlap]

On 08 Sep 2007 18:07:00 +0200 Andi Kleen wrote:

> Folkert van Heusden <folkert@vanheusden.com> writes:
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Maybe it is a nice enhancement for make menuconfig to more explicitly
> > give a pop-up or so when someone selects for example a sata controller
> > while no 'scsi-disk' support was selected?
> 
> This has also bitten me one or two times. A reasonable way would
> be to just select SD automatically for !EMBEDDED
> 
> Here's a patch:
> 
> -Andi
> 
> Select BLK_DEV_SD for all SCSI/libata drivers
> 
> This avoid a common user mistake.

I'd say that someone needs to use a vendor kernel, or at least
begin with a vendor .config file...


> Signed-off-by: Andi Kleen <ak@suse.de>

---
~Randy
*** Remember to use Documentation/SubmitChecklist when testing your code ***

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Sat, Sep 08, 2007 at 09:50:08AM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> On 08 Sep 2007 18:07:00 +0200 Andi Kleen wrote:
> > This has also bitten me one or two times. A reasonable way would
> > be to just select SD automatically for !EMBEDDED
> 
> I'd say that someone needs to use a vendor kernel, or at least
> begin with a vendor .config file...

That's not entirely fair ... if you're switching over from a config
you've been dragging around for years which uses IDE rather than ATA,
it's far from obvious which config options you need to change.  I think
Andi's patch is a good one.  It might also be good to select SR (at
least my wife's laptop has the cd-rom on SATA).

-- 
Intel are signing my paycheques ... these opinions are still mine
"Bill, look, we understand that you're interested in selling us this
operating system, but compare it to ours.  We can't possibly take such
a retrograde step."

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Andi Kleen]

> I'd say that someone needs to use a vendor kernel, or at least
> begin with a vendor .config file...

Vendor kernels tend to compile forever and require initrds. For 
just testing a kernel quickly compiling only a few drivers in
is much more convenient.

Also when you've been using CONFIG_IDE before it is not completely
obvious you need BLK_SD for your hard disk.

-Andi

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Stefan Richter]

Andi Kleen wrote:
> when you've been using CONFIG_IDE before it is not completely
> obvious you need BLK_SD for your hard disk.

Switching to different drivers without reading the help text?
Tough.
-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-=-=== =--= -=---
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Andi Kleen]

On Sat, Sep 08, 2007 at 08:30:06PM +0200, Stefan Richter wrote:
> Andi Kleen wrote:
> > when you've been using CONFIG_IDE before it is not completely
> > obvious you need BLK_SD for your hard disk.
> 
> Switching to different drivers without reading the help text?
> Tough.

The individual driver descriptions don't say BLK_SD needs to be selected.

Besides if all descriptions said that the computer could as well
do it for the user automatically. After all it's a stupid repetive
task and computers are much better at those than humans.

-Andi

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Stefan Richter]

Andi Kleen wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 08, 2007 at 08:30:06PM +0200, Stefan Richter wrote:
>> Andi Kleen wrote:
>>> when you've been using CONFIG_IDE before it is not completely
>>> obvious you need BLK_SD for your hard disk.
>> Switching to different drivers without reading the help text?
>> Tough.
> 
> The individual driver descriptions don't say BLK_SD needs to be selected.

At least the help to CONFIG_ATA says so.

> Besides if all descriptions said that

We certainly don't want (too much) redundancy in help texts.

> the computer could as well
> do it for the user automatically. After all it's a stupid repetive
> task and computers are much better at those than humans.

In your patch, it is not the computer who finds out that the user wants
BLK_SD.  It is you who predetermined that the user wants it.
-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-=-=== =--= -=---
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[James Bottomley]

On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 18:07 +0200, Andi Kleen wrote:
> Folkert van Heusden <folkert@vanheusden.com> writes:
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Maybe it is a nice enhancement for make menuconfig to more explicitly
> > give a pop-up or so when someone selects for example a sata controller
> > while no 'scsi-disk' support was selected?
> 
> This has also bitten me one or two times. A reasonable way would
> be to just select SD automatically for !EMBEDDED
> 
> Here's a patch:
> 
> -Andi
> 
> Select BLK_DEV_SD for all SCSI/libata drivers
> 
> This avoid a common user mistake.

I can see where you're coming from, but logically, this is wrong.
There's a huge slew of enterprise machines that only have DVD on SATA.
On the other hand, all of these machines will have SCSI disk devices on
various other transports, so no harm is done, it's just an inelegant
solution.

James

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Andi Kleen]

> I can see where you're coming from, but logically, this is wrong.
> There's a huge slew of enterprise machines that only have DVD on SATA.

... and enterprise systems don't really care about a few KB more of code.
In fact you definitely want to have SATA compiled in in case you need
to recover the machine later when the SAN is down.

> On the other hand, all of these machines will have SCSI disk devices on
> various other transports, so no harm is done, it's just an inelegant
> solution.

Do you know of a better one?

-Andi

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Jeff Garzik]

Andi Kleen wrote:
>> I can see where you're coming from, but logically, this is wrong.
>> There's a huge slew of enterprise machines that only have DVD on SATA.
> 
> ... and enterprise systems don't really care about a few KB more of code.
> In fact you definitely want to have SATA compiled in in case you need
> to recover the machine later when the SAN is down.
> 
>> On the other hand, all of these machines will have SCSI disk devices on
>> various other transports, so no harm is done, it's just an inelegant
>> solution.
> 
> Do you know of a better one?

Let's step back a moment and consider the actual scale and impact of the 
problem at hand.

The vast majority of users are consumers of pre-compiled kernels, built 
by People With Clue(tm), who figured this stuff out as soon as it was 
introduced.

The current setup expresses the dependencies as they exist -- OPTIONAL 
extras, and that is a problem once a year or so, when someone builds 
their own kernel but must learn this fact anew.

There is simply no compelling need at all to change things from the 
current setup.

Our Kconfig system is for people who already know the kernel, not Aunt 
Tillie.

	Jeff

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Andi Kleen]

> The current setup expresses the dependencies as they exist -- OPTIONAL 
> extras, and that is a problem once a year or so, when someone builds 

Disk support over SCSI/SATA is hardly an "optional extra". It's more the 99+%
case.

> their own kernel but must learn this fact anew.

When it costs 10000 people half an hour to learn and correct this it 
wasted 5000 hours of previous livetime.

Besides there is no good reason to have ever learned this imho.

-Andi

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[James Bottomley]

On Sun, 2007-09-09 at 23:22 +0200, Andi Kleen wrote:
> > The current setup expresses the dependencies as they exist -- OPTIONAL 
> > extras, and that is a problem once a year or so, when someone builds 
> 
> Disk support over SCSI/SATA is hardly an "optional extra". It's more the 99+%
> case.

Using that argument, there's an equal case for always requiring SCSI to
be built for every kernel, since very few people can boot a system
without a disk.  However, the 1% case is the embedded flash booting
community plus a few others, so we allow SCSI to be optional for our 1%
who don't want it.

At base, the Kconfig system is designed to give the greatest flexibility
with the fewest foot shooting opportunities.  However, we do tend to err
on the side of flexibility if there's a conflict between the two design
goals.

> > their own kernel but must learn this fact anew.
> 
> When it costs 10000 people half an hour to learn and correct this it 
> wasted 5000 hours of previous livetime.
>
> Besides there is no good reason to have ever learned this imho.

The process of becoming an expert in the kernel build system naturally
involves making mistakes and learning from them, so this is probably
time reasonably well spent.

James

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Stefan Richter]

James Bottomley wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-09-09 at 23:22 +0200, Andi Kleen wrote:
>> When it costs 10000 people half an hour to learn and correct this it 
>> wasted 5000 hours of previous livetime.
>>
>> Besides there is no good reason to have ever learned this imho.
> 
> The process of becoming an expert in the kernel build system naturally
> involves making mistakes and learning from them, so this is probably
> time reasonably well spent.

Nevertheless we should try to arrange the menus in a way that makes
sense to as many people as possible.  The difficulty is, different
environments call for different menu layouts, as your previous example
of SATA DVD-only boxes demonstrates.

However, liberal usage of 'select' is not the ultimate solution to
create menus that work for more people.  Just one problem with select is
that it works behind the back of the people configuring kernels (unless
they use an UI with debug options turned on) --- they have less control,
they are less informed.  ATA already 'select's SCSI.  What do we gain
from hiding the fact that Linux' SCSI option is not just for those
50-wire ribbons (which people still think SCSI stands for) but is a very
central Linux subsystem for even more than what complies to the SCSI
family of standards?

'select' should really be limited to switch on small library-like code
without further dependencies or requirements.  SCSI, together with its
upper layer options, is not of this kind of library.

We should think about order and grouping of prompts and the labels of
prompts (there were already suggestions in this discussion) before we
resort to 'select' --- or even worse, select options unconditionally
which are not always necessary to be enabled.

A pro pos grouping of options --- consider how options for another
central subsystem are laid out:

	Networking
		Networking options
			...
			TCP/IP networking
			...
		...

	Device Drivers
		...
		Network device support
			...
			Ethernet (10 or 100MBit)
			...
		...

This also happens to reflect the layout of sources in directories, and
the current SCSI menu layout is close to source layout too --- but it
doesn't have to be that way.
-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-=-=== =--= -=-=-
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Rene Herman]

On 09/10/2007 08:38 AM, Stefan Richter wrote:

> Nevertheless we should try to arrange the menus in a way that makes
> sense to as many people as possible.  The difficulty is, different
> environments call for different menu layouts, as your previous example
> of SATA DVD-only boxes demonstrates.
> 
> However, liberal usage of 'select' is not the ultimate solution to
> create menus that work for more people.  Just one problem with select is
> that it works behind the back of the people configuring kernels (unless
> they use an UI with debug options turned on) --- they have less control,
> they are less informed.  ATA already 'select's SCSI.  What do we gain
> from hiding the fact that Linux' SCSI option is not just for those
> 50-wire ribbons (which people still think SCSI stands for) but is a very
> central Linux subsystem for even more than what complies to the SCSI
> family of standards?
> 
> 'select' should really be limited to switch on small library-like code
> without further dependencies or requirements.  SCSI, together with its
> upper layer options, is not of this kind of library.
> 
> We should think about order and grouping of prompts and the labels of
> prompts (there were already suggestions in this discussion) before we
> resort to 'select' --- or even worse, select options unconditionally
> which are not always necessary to be enabled.
> 
> A pro pos grouping of options --- consider how options for another
> central subsystem are laid out:
> 
> 	Networking
> 		Networking options
> 			...
> 			TCP/IP networking
> 			...
> 		...
> 
> 	Device Drivers
> 		...
> 		Network device support
> 			...
> 			Ethernet (10 or 100MBit)
> 			...
> 		...
> 
> This also happens to reflect the layout of sources in directories, and
> the current SCSI menu layout is close to source layout too --- but it
> doesn't have to be that way.

If someone's keen on really restructuring these things -- in this analogy:

Storage
	Storage Options
		...
		Disk
		Optical
		...
	...

Device Drivers
	...
	Storage Support
		...
		IDE
		PATA
		SATA
		SCSI
		USB
		FW
		...
	...

(sound is an example where both in the menus and the tree everything is kept 
under one top-level sound/ directory, not sound/ and drivers/sound/ as for 
networking -- opinions may vary which one's better I guess).

This is just config menus -- on a source code level, it would also make 
sense at least at some point to introduce "storage/" alongside net/ and 
sound/ and move things around I guess.

Rene.

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Bauke Jan Douma]

Andi Kleen wrote on 09-09-07 23:22:

> 
> When it costs 10000 people half an hour to learn and correct this it 
> wasted 5000 hours of previous livetime.
          ^^^^^            ^       ^

Poor me. Here I am -- still waiting for my 15 minutes of fame in /this/ life...

;-)

bjd

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sun, Sep 09, 2007 at 05:11:44PM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> Andi Kleen wrote:
>>> I can see where you're coming from, but logically, this is wrong.
>>> There's a huge slew of enterprise machines that only have DVD on SATA.
>> ... and enterprise systems don't really care about a few KB more of code.
>> In fact you definitely want to have SATA compiled in in case you need
>> to recover the machine later when the SAN is down.
>>> On the other hand, all of these machines will have SCSI disk devices on
>>> various other transports, so no harm is done, it's just an inelegant
>>> solution.
>> Do you know of a better one?
>
> Let's step back a moment and consider the actual scale and impact of the 
> problem at hand.
>
> The vast majority of users are consumers of pre-compiled kernels, built by 
> People With Clue(tm), who figured this stuff out as soon as it was 
> introduced.

We are talking about a patch to kconfig, and the users using 
pre-compiled kernels are not kconfig users.

> The current setup expresses the dependencies as they exist -- OPTIONAL 
> extras, and that is a problem once a year or so, when someone builds their 
> own kernel but must learn this fact anew.
>
> There is simply no compelling need at all to change things from the current 
> setup.
>
> Our Kconfig system is for people who already know the kernel, not Aunt 
> Tillie.

Couldn't we just remove kconfig and assume that all "people who already 
know the kernel" anyway prefer to edit their .config using vi?  ;-)

In my experience, the vast majority of kconfig users are not the few 
people working on distribution kernels, most of the kconfig userbase 
could be better described by the use case "sysadmin who knows about the 
hardware in his machine and which filesystems he uses".

And there must have been a reason why a leading kernel developer has 
written a complete book covering only configuration and building of the
kernel - the target audience of this book are most likely not "people 
who already know the kernel".

> 	Jeff

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Stefan Richter]

Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 09, 2007 at 05:11:44PM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote:
>> Let's step back a moment and consider the actual scale and impact of the 
>> problem at hand.
>>
>> The vast majority of users are consumers of pre-compiled kernels, built by 
>> People With Clue(tm), who figured this stuff out as soon as it was 
>> introduced.
[...]
> In my experience, the vast majority of kconfig users are not the few 
> people working on distribution kernels, most of the kconfig userbase 
> could be better described by the use case "sysadmin who knows about the 
> hardware in his machine and which filesystems he uses".

The patch which is discussed here is specifically targeted towards users
who are convinced that they can migrate to different drivers without
reading Kconfig help texts.
-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-=-=== =--= -===-
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Adrian Bunk]

On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 04:54:07PM +0200, Stefan Richter wrote:
> Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > On Sun, Sep 09, 2007 at 05:11:44PM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> >> Let's step back a moment and consider the actual scale and impact of the 
> >> problem at hand.
> >>
> >> The vast majority of users are consumers of pre-compiled kernels, built by 
> >> People With Clue(tm), who figured this stuff out as soon as it was 
> >> introduced.
> [...]
> > In my experience, the vast majority of kconfig users are not the few 
> > people working on distribution kernels, most of the kconfig userbase 
> > could be better described by the use case "sysadmin who knows about the 
> > hardware in his machine and which filesystems he uses".
> 
> The patch which is discussed here is specifically targeted towards users
> who are convinced that they can migrate to different drivers without
> reading Kconfig help texts.

Nothing about the patch is only about migration.

The same applies if you configure a kernel from scratch.

Do "make menuconfig" with the .config you are normally using, count the 
number of options that are visible, and ask yourself whether we can 
really expect users to read the help texts for every single option shown.

People mostly read help texts for options where they don't understand 
what this option is about - and "Serial ATA" therefore is an option that 
is likely to get enabled without the user looking at the help text.

> Stefan Richter

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Stefan Richter]

Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 04:54:07PM +0200, Stefan Richter wrote:
>> The patch which is discussed here is specifically targeted towards users
>> who are convinced that they can migrate to different drivers without
>> reading Kconfig help texts.
> 
> Nothing about the patch is only about migration.
> 
> The same applies if you configure a kernel from scratch.
> 
> Do "make menuconfig" with the .config you are normally using, count the 
> number of options that are visible, and ask yourself whether we can 
> really expect users to read the help texts for every single option shown.
> 
> People mostly read help texts for options where they don't understand 
> what this option is about - and "Serial ATA" therefore is an option that 
> is likely to get enabled without the user looking at the help text.

If you create .config from scratch, then you can get away without
reading help texts if you have a target with minimal hardware and
protocols requirements and you know all the subsystems involved.

In all other cases, you theoretically need to read all help texts (minus
the ones that don't appear because you deselect entire subsystems).  In
practice, this takes too much time, hence you take an existing .config
(yours or somebody else's) and go from there.

Whenever one enables an option for the first time, it would IMO be
foolish to ignore its help text.
-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-=-=== =--= -===-
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Adrian Bunk]

On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 05:37:37PM +0200, Stefan Richter wrote:
> Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 04:54:07PM +0200, Stefan Richter wrote:
> >> The patch which is discussed here is specifically targeted towards users
> >> who are convinced that they can migrate to different drivers without
> >> reading Kconfig help texts.
> > 
> > Nothing about the patch is only about migration.
> > 
> > The same applies if you configure a kernel from scratch.
> > 
> > Do "make menuconfig" with the .config you are normally using, count the 
> > number of options that are visible, and ask yourself whether we can 
> > really expect users to read the help texts for every single option shown.
> > 
> > People mostly read help texts for options where they don't understand 
> > what this option is about - and "Serial ATA" therefore is an option that 
> > is likely to get enabled without the user looking at the help text.
> 
> If you create .config from scratch, then you can get away without
> reading help texts if you have a target with minimal hardware and
> protocols requirements and you know all the subsystems involved.
> 
> In all other cases, you theoretically need to read all help texts (minus
> the ones that don't appear because you deselect entire subsystems).  In
> practice, this takes too much time, hence you take an existing .config
> (yours or somebody else's) and go from there.

Kconfig let's you start with the defconfig when doing "make menuconfig" 
without any .config present, so in practice users start from the 
defconfig and then go through all menus at once enabling and disabling 
options to adapt the configurations to their needs.

Or they start from the "includes everything" .config of their 
distribution and remove everything they don't need.

> Whenever one enables an option for the first time, it would IMO be
> foolish to ignore its help text.

Then the number of non-foolish users is quite near to 0...

If you expect people to read several hundreds or thousands of help texts 
only for configuring a kernel then you are expecting something that is 
simply not realistic.

It is intuitive for a user to enable the "Serial ATA" menu and he might 
not expect to have to read the help text when he has SATA drivers, while 
having to enable anything in the "SCSI device support" menu is highly 
unintuitively when the user does not have SCSI hardware.

> Stefan Richter

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Stefan Richter]

Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 05:37:37PM +0200, Stefan Richter wrote:
>> In
>> practice, this takes too much time, hence you take an existing .config
>> (yours or somebody else's) and go from there.
> 
> Kconfig let's you start with the defconfig when doing "make menuconfig" 
> without any .config present,
[...]

This is one of those "somebody else's .config".

>> Whenever one enables an option for the first time, it would IMO be
>> foolish to ignore its help text.
> 
> Then the number of non-foolish users is quite near to 0...

Perhaps.  Although I meant only options which one enables oneself, not
options which are taken over from somebody else's .config.

> If you expect people to read several hundreds or thousands of help texts 
> only for configuring a kernel then you are expecting something that is 
> simply not realistic.
> 
> It is intuitive for a user to enable the "Serial ATA" menu and he might 
> not expect to have to read the help text when he has SATA drivers, while 
> having to enable anything in the "SCSI device support" menu is highly 
> unintuitively when the user does not have SCSI hardware.

It surely is unintuitive, and it is one of the worse cases where the
current menu layout is unintuitive.  We have to improve that, even
though it is ultimately impossible to serve everyone's needs equally
well or, generally, make kernel configuration a piece of cake.

Note though, some suggestions which came up here don't actually make the
menus more intuitive.  Notably the patch "Select BLK_DEV_SD for all
SCSI/libata drivers" is counterintuitive in a different color:  It
follows the philosophy of "I know what's good for you and I act on your
behalf behind your back --- trust me, it's for your best".

I too am guilty of proposing the usage of 'select'
(http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/9/8/9) but I suggested a variant which lets
the user stay informed and in control (as far as this is possible with
'select' which always increases complexity, never reduces it).

But rather than adding multiple menu items which enable the same option,
a reorganization of the menus which better reflect the role of SCSI core
and SCSI highlevel might be more effective --- similar to "Networking"
which is separate from "Network device support"
(http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/9/10/5, http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/9/10/115).
-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-=-=== =--= -===-
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Paul Rolland]

Hello,

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:15:22 +0200
Adrian Bunk <bunk@kernel.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 04:54:07PM +0200, Stefan Richter wrote:
> > Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > On Sun, Sep 09, 2007 at 05:11:44PM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> > >> Let's step back a moment and consider the actual scale and impact of
> > >> the problem at hand.
> Do "make menuconfig" with the .config you are normally using, count the 
> number of options that are visible, and ask yourself whether we can 
> really expect users to read the help texts for every single option shown.
> 
> People mostly read help texts for options where they don't understand 
> what this option is about - and "Serial ATA" therefore is an option that 
> is likely to get enabled without the user looking at the help text.
> 

As a "make menuconfig" user, let me say that I agree. Of course, I'm used
to rebuild kernel, but sometimes, some options are not clear, and the help
text is searched for. But, getting too much of "No help text available"
usually results in people no more reading the help text.

What about splitting the screen to have the top half with the menu, and the
bottom half with the help ?

Paul


-- 
Paul Rolland                                E-Mail : rol(at)witbe.net
Witbe.net SA                                Tel. +33 (0)1 47 67 77 77
Les Collines de l'Arche                     Fax. +33 (0)1 47 67 77 99
F-92057 Paris La Defense                    RIPE : PR12-RIPE

Please no HTML, I'm not a browser - Pas d'HTML, je ne suis pas un navigateur 
"Some people dream of success... while others wake up and work hard at it" 

"I worry about my child and the Internet all the time, even though she's too 
young to have logged on yet. Here's what I worry about. I worry that 10 or 15 
years from now, she will come to me and say 'Daddy, where were you when they 
took freedom of the press away from the Internet?'"
--Mike Godwin, Electronic Frontier Foundation 

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Stefan Richter]

Paul Rolland wrote:
> getting too much of "No help text available"
> usually results in people no more reading the help text.

I assert that a Kconfig prompt (a visible Kconfig variable) _without_
help text is a bug.
-- 
Stefan Richter
-=====-=-=== =--= -====
http://arcgraph.de/sr/

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[Paul Rolland]

Hello Stefan,

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:25:39 +0200
Stefan Richter <stefanr@s5r6.in-berlin.de> wrote:

> Paul Rolland wrote:
> > getting too much of "No help text available"
> > usually results in people no more reading the help text.
> 
> I assert that a Kconfig prompt (a visible Kconfig variable) _without_
> help text is a bug.

Here is an example from 2.6.34-rc6 :
 .config - Linux Kernel v2.6.23-rc6 Configuration
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 +------------------------- Provide RTC interrupt -------------------------+ 
 | There is no help available for this kernel option.                      |
 | Symbol: HPET_EMULATE_RTC [=y]                                           |
 | Prompt: Provide RTC interrupt                                           |
 |   Defined at arch/x86_64/Kconfig:471                                    |
 |   Depends on: HPET_TIMER && RTC=y                                       |
 |   Location:                                                             |
 |   -> Processor type and features |   

Regards,
Paul

Re: sata & scsi suggestion for make menuconfig

[david]

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007, Paul Rolland wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:15:22 +0200
> Adrian Bunk <bunk@kernel.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 04:54:07PM +0200, Stefan Richter wrote:
>>> Adrian Bunk wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Sep 09, 2007 at 05:11:44PM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote:
>>>>> Let's step back a moment and consider the actual scale and impact of
>>>>> the problem at hand.
>> Do "make menuconfig" with the .config you are normally using, count the
>> number of options that are visible, and ask yourself whether we can
>> really expect users to read the help texts for every single option shown.
>>
>> People mostly read help texts for options where they don't understand
>> what this option is about - and "Serial ATA" therefore is an option that
>> is likely to get enabled without the user looking at the help text.
>>
>
> As a "make menuconfig" user, let me say that I agree. Of course, I'm used
> to rebuild kernel, but sometimes, some options are not clear, and the help
> text is searched for. But, getting too much of "No help text available"
> usually results in people no more reading the help text.
>
> What about splitting the screen to have the top half with the menu, and the
> bottom half with the help ?

I useually have more screen space available to the side then above and 
below the list of options.

David Lang