From: Dave Airlie <airlied@gmail.com>
To: Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org>
Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Linux in a binary world... a doomsday scenario
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 22:39:42 +1100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <21d7e9970512050339s392c12a9jd4168cd707bb5e8d@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <1133779953.9356.9.camel@laptopd505.fenrus.org>
> Several hardware vendors that have been friendly to open source so far,
> see their competitors ship only binary drivers, and internally they
> start to see pressure to also keep the IP private, and they know that
> they haven't used some features of the hardware because their legal
> department didn't want that IP in the public. As a result they perceive
> their competitors binary drivers to be at a theoretical advantage, or at
> least their own drivers could be at an advantage if they were also
> closed, because they then can use those few extra features to be ahead
> of the competition. By February 1st 2006, about half the hardware
> vendors have refocused their internal linux driver efforts to create
> value adds in the binary drivers they will release in addition to the
> open drivers that already exist. Some vendors even openly stopped
> supporting the open drivers because they don't have enough resources
> to do both.
This is pretty much how the 3D drivers has gone down (as I'm sure
Arjan knows) but just to back it up with others, ATI released enough
info to make a basic 3D driver for their hardware to do OpenGL, they
didn't give out any info on the "protected IP" like HyperZ, MPEG
decoder, SmartShader, the list goes on, a lot of this has since been
reverse engineered for the older chips, then NVIDIA didn't release any
open source drivers, then ATI decided to go close source as they
couldn't compete on the feature set they were willing (allowed by
lawyers) to put into the open source drivers. ATI engineers now use
the excuse well NVIDIA have a closed source driver so we have to have
one to compete. Again neither company is willing to put resources into
doing much on the open source scene due to lack of staff, reasons, and
neither company is willing to give info to open source developers
because they need to push it all past their legal departments (despite
this info existing and a number of open source developers having
access to it via $job).
Intel are now starting to think about doing closed source only drivers
from what I heard on the grapevine, and as their open drivers only
provide modesetting via the BIOS, their drivers aren't exactly useful
in many situations..
Its a slippery slippery slope and all you people that bitch and moan
about stable API really don't have a clue what it means, Arjans
scenario is quite practical (it may take longer to happen but I doubt
the future would be much different..)
You'd also have issues with two binary drivers doing things in the
kernel that might affect each other, like bad interrupt sharing or
messing with pci setups for higher speeds, and no chance of getting
them working in any controlled fashion together without vendor
support.
Dave.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2005-12-05 11:39 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 315+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2005-12-05 10:52 Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-05 11:39 ` Dave Airlie [this message]
2005-12-05 13:55 ` Xavier Bestel
2005-12-08 14:27 ` Graham Murray
2005-12-05 12:18 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-12-05 13:07 ` Pekka Enberg
2005-12-05 18:44 ` Alistair John Strachan
2005-12-05 19:47 ` Gene Heskett
2005-12-06 10:51 ` Luke-Jr
2005-12-06 12:29 ` Ralf Baechle
2005-12-07 0:01 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-12-06 17:03 ` Jon Masters
2005-12-06 1:18 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-05 14:31 ` Brian Gerst
2005-12-06 3:08 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-05 16:23 ` Brian Gerst
2005-12-06 18:42 ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06 19:23 ` Alan Cox
2005-12-06 21:33 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06 22:25 ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06 22:49 ` Alan Cox
2005-12-06 23:03 ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06 23:25 ` Andrew Grover
2005-12-07 0:56 ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06 10:42 ` Sander
[not found] ` <f0cc38560512060307m2ccc6db8xd9180c2a1a926c5c@mail.gmail.com>
2005-12-06 11:44 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-06 1:43 ` Brian Gerst
2005-12-06 14:09 ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-12-14 16:33 ` Eric W. Biederman
2005-12-14 17:01 ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-12-14 17:20 ` Eric W. Biederman
2005-12-14 18:51 ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-12-06 14:13 ` Rudolf Randal
2005-12-06 14:49 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-06 21:39 ` Nicolas Mailhot
2005-12-08 0:58 ` Kasper Sandberg
2005-12-08 2:24 ` Diego Calleja
2005-12-08 6:21 ` Zwane Mwaikambo
2005-12-08 12:31 ` Diego Calleja
2005-12-08 12:39 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-08 13:01 ` Matan Peled
2005-12-08 16:55 ` Kasper Sandberg
2005-12-08 19:32 ` Horst von Brand
2005-12-08 21:10 ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-12-09 6:12 ` Ben Greear
2005-12-07 7:02 ` Luke-Jr
2005-12-07 7:03 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-06 15:16 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-06 15:30 ` Florian Weimer
2005-12-06 15:49 ` Paweł Sikora
2005-12-06 19:00 ` Tomasz Torcz
2005-12-06 19:11 ` Paweł Sikora
2005-12-06 19:34 ` Tomasz Torcz
2005-12-06 20:29 ` Dave Jones
2005-12-06 23:25 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-06 19:13 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06 19:37 ` Lee Revell
2005-12-06 19:41 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06 19:55 ` Lee Revell
2005-12-06 20:25 ` Alan Cox
2005-12-06 21:55 ` Dave Airlie
2005-12-06 21:49 ` Reverse engineering (was Re: Linux in a binary world... a doomsday scenario) Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06 20:54 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2005-12-06 23:13 ` Reverse engineering Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-06 23:19 ` Lee Revell
2005-12-06 22:21 ` Reverse engineering (was Re: Linux in a binary world... a doomsday scenario) Lee Revell
2005-12-06 23:48 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06 22:44 ` Linux in a binary world... a doomsday scenario Florian Weimer
2005-12-06 22:56 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-06 23:17 ` Lee Revell
2005-12-06 21:00 ` Francois Romieu
2005-12-08 1:04 ` Kasper Sandberg
[not found] ` <6f6293f10512060404x57cfb97dqaa469f2701cd2528@mail.gmail.com>
2005-12-06 12:11 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-06 15:09 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-06 9:07 ` Dirk Steuwer
2005-12-06 10:46 ` Sander
2005-12-06 16:41 ` Dirk Steuwer
2005-12-06 18:48 ` Lee Revell
2005-12-06 21:35 ` Grahame White
2005-12-07 8:09 ` Dirk Steuwer
2005-12-07 12:47 ` Lars Marowsky-Bree
2005-12-07 0:45 ` Horst von Brand
2005-12-07 14:17 ` Runs with Linux (tm) Benjamin LaHaise
2005-12-07 14:34 ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-12-07 18:13 ` Randy.Dunlap
2005-12-07 18:22 ` Jesse Barnes
2005-12-12 21:13 ` David Lang
2005-12-12 21:20 ` Randy.Dunlap
2005-12-07 19:12 ` Lee Revell
2005-12-07 19:47 ` Benjamin LaHaise
2005-12-07 22:23 ` Jeffrey Hundstad
1970-01-02 3:28 ` Pavel Machek
2005-12-07 22:29 ` Michael Poole
2005-12-08 8:08 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-07 22:49 ` Benjamin LaHaise
2005-12-08 3:28 ` Magnus Damm
2005-12-08 2:07 ` Richard Knutsson
2005-12-08 2:38 ` Benjamin LaHaise
2005-12-08 4:15 ` Richard Knutsson
2005-12-08 8:50 ` free Driver proposal (tm) Dirk Steuwer
2005-12-08 9:42 ` Runs with Linux (tm) jerome lacoste
2005-12-08 11:04 ` Felix Oxley
2005-12-08 11:48 ` jerome lacoste
2005-12-08 12:23 ` Felix Oxley
2005-12-09 5:49 ` Linux in a binary world... a doomsday scenario Miles Bader
2005-12-09 9:49 ` Felix Oxley
2005-12-09 9:53 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-06 15:17 ` Pavel Machek
2005-12-13 2:00 ` Rob Landley
2005-12-13 7:56 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-13 9:07 ` Rob Landley
2005-12-13 10:18 ` Felix Oxley
2005-12-07 15:06 ` Rik van Riel
2005-12-08 7:14 ` Andrew McGregor
2005-12-06 8:29 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-07 18:39 ` Rik van Riel
2005-12-07 18:44 ` Randy.Dunlap
2005-12-07 18:55 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-07 19:53 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2005-12-07 20:22 ` Gerrit Huizenga
2005-12-07 20:30 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-07 20:56 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-07 21:02 ` Dave Jones
2005-12-07 21:30 ` Gerrit Huizenga
2005-12-07 21:38 ` David S. Miller
2005-12-07 21:47 ` Andrew Walrond
2005-12-07 21:53 ` Gerrit Huizenga
2005-12-12 17:52 ` Ric Wheeler
2005-12-13 8:17 ` Andrew Walrond
2005-12-07 20:16 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-07 20:19 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-07 20:40 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-08 13:23 ` Dirk Steuwer
2005-12-08 14:03 ` Diego Calleja
2005-12-08 18:44 ` Dave Neuer
2005-12-07 20:51 ` Rik van Riel
2005-12-07 19:34 ` Lee Revell
2005-12-07 23:17 ` Horst von Brand
2005-12-09 6:17 ` Ben Greear
2005-12-08 10:58 ` Sander
2005-12-06 12:26 ` Denis Vlasenko
2005-12-06 15:36 ` Hannu Savolainen
2005-12-06 18:51 ` Lee Revell
2005-12-06 20:26 ` Hannu Savolainen
2005-12-07 15:18 ` Avi Kivity
2005-12-07 20:10 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
[not found] ` <f0cc38560512071322m1d370589vd9f8a7684fa2ee1d@mail.gmail.com>
2005-12-08 12:19 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2005-12-06 17:23 ` Jon Masters
2005-12-05 17:18 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-05 17:29 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2005-12-05 22:52 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-06 6:28 ` Rob Landley
2005-12-05 18:26 ` Andrew Walrond
2005-12-05 18:34 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-05 19:41 ` jmerkey
2005-12-06 9:26 ` [OT] " Alexander E. Patrakov
2005-12-06 16:27 ` Simon Oosthoek
2005-12-06 18:50 ` Luke-Jr
2005-12-08 8:14 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-08 11:30 ` Luke-Jr
2005-12-12 11:27 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-08 13:48 ` Nix
2005-12-12 12:01 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-12 19:46 ` Nix
2005-12-13 8:10 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-13 22:21 ` Nix
2005-12-14 8:14 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-16 7:38 ` Nix
2005-12-05 21:19 ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-05 21:24 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-05 21:54 ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-05 23:56 ` Tim Bird
2005-12-06 0:10 ` Dave Airlie
2005-12-06 0:23 ` Tim Bird
2005-12-06 0:26 ` Tim Bird
2005-12-06 4:08 ` Greg KH
2005-12-06 6:07 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-12-06 7:06 ` Neil Brown
2005-12-06 8:13 ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06 9:10 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-06 16:47 ` Greg KH
2005-12-06 7:58 ` Coywolf Qi Hunt
2005-12-06 16:11 ` Greg KH
2005-12-07 1:38 ` Coywolf Qi Hunt
2005-12-07 2:40 ` Greg KH
2005-12-07 3:23 ` Coywolf Qi Hunt
2005-12-07 5:29 ` Greg KH
2005-12-07 18:57 ` Horst von Brand
2005-12-10 5:17 ` GNU/Linux " Richard M. Stallman
2005-12-06 18:56 ` Linux " Luke-Jr
2005-12-07 1:42 ` Coywolf Qi Hunt
2005-12-07 2:06 ` Wed, 7 Dec 2005 03:06:35 +0100
2005-12-07 5:25 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-10 5:16 ` GNU/Linux " Richard M. Stallman
2005-12-10 7:06 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2005-12-10 16:43 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-10 19:05 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2005-12-10 18:44 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2005-12-10 19:15 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2005-12-10 20:44 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2005-12-10 21:47 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2005-12-11 13:56 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-11 15:15 ` Erwin Rol
2005-12-11 16:38 ` Florian Weimer
2005-12-12 15:51 ` Alan Cox
2005-12-11 16:27 ` Florian Weimer
2005-12-11 16:49 ` Richard M. Stallman
2005-12-11 23:19 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-12 13:45 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-12 15:34 ` Lee Revell
2005-12-12 15:37 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-11 13:24 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
[not found] ` <39068.10.10.10.28.1134245083.squirrel@linux1>
2005-12-10 20:04 ` [way OT] " Sean
2005-12-11 2:12 ` Horst von Brand
2005-12-11 5:40 ` Patrick McLean
[not found] ` <E1ElJMz-00047E-1p@fencepost.gnu.org>
2005-12-11 8:34 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2005-12-12 0:44 ` Richard M. Stallman
2005-12-12 0:50 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2005-12-12 3:03 ` Luke-Jr
2005-12-06 4:18 ` Linux " Al Viro
2005-12-06 2:22 ` Gene Heskett
2005-12-06 3:56 ` Zwane Mwaikambo
2005-12-06 4:27 ` Gene Heskett
2005-12-06 18:33 ` Jesper Juhl
2005-12-06 19:12 ` Zwane Mwaikambo
2005-12-06 19:15 ` Jesper Juhl
2005-12-08 21:49 ` Rob Landley
2005-12-10 2:38 ` Lee Revell
2005-12-10 5:51 ` Luke-Jr
2005-12-06 11:38 ` Jean-Christian de Rivaz
2005-12-06 19:12 ` Jesper Juhl
2005-12-06 21:13 ` Jon Masters
2005-12-06 0:14 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-06 0:34 ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06 0:53 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-06 1:20 ` Tim Bird
2005-12-06 1:35 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-06 1:55 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06 9:16 ` Xavier Bestel
2005-12-06 9:26 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-06 9:56 ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06 10:09 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06 14:50 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-06 15:25 ` David Woodhouse
2005-12-06 19:58 ` Alan Cox
2005-12-06 19:20 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-12-06 4:12 ` Greg KH
2005-12-06 4:18 ` Michael Poole
2005-12-06 17:21 ` Benjamin LaHaise
2005-12-07 12:39 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-07 12:41 ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-12-07 14:25 ` Rik van Riel
2005-12-07 15:56 ` Michael Poole
2005-12-06 18:19 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-12-06 19:27 ` Alan Cox
2005-12-06 19:38 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-12-06 20:18 ` Alan Cox
2005-12-06 20:53 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-12-07 14:30 ` Rik van Riel
2005-12-05 23:24 ` Matthieu CASTET
2005-12-06 13:28 ` Ralf Baechle
2005-12-06 2:58 ` Andre Hedrick
2005-12-06 13:13 ` Rudolf Randal
2005-12-06 15:09 ` Mark Lord
2005-12-06 16:16 ` Jon Smirl
2005-12-06 16:32 ` Florian Weimer
2005-12-07 12:44 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-07 12:49 ` Alan Cox
2005-12-07 16:15 ` Jon Smirl
2005-12-07 12:55 ` Lars Marowsky-Bree
2005-12-07 21:46 ` Chase Venters
2005-12-07 23:07 ` Alan Cox
2005-12-07 23:41 ` Jon Smirl
2005-12-07 23:59 ` Chase Venters
2005-12-08 8:24 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-06 14:23 Aimo Asiakas
2005-12-06 14:36 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-06 15:31 ` Pekka Enberg
2005-12-07 21:06 Salyzyn, Mark
2005-12-12 14:45 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-12-13 8:25 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-13 9:44 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-13 12:14 ` Alan Cox
2005-12-14 8:59 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-14 9:14 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-13 17:02 ` Gene Heskett
2005-12-14 8:48 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-08 10:27 Nicolas Mailhot
2005-12-09 15:59 ` Dirk Steuwer
2005-12-08 15:49 AW: " dirk
2005-12-08 16:14 ` Diego Calleja
2005-12-08 20:28 ` Horst von Brand
[not found] <20051208083941.B233113E51@rhn.tartu-labor>
2005-12-08 17:13 ` Kasper Sandberg
2005-12-13 22:59 mreuther
2005-12-13 23:05 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-12-13 23:54 art
2005-12-14 21:13 Al Boldi
2005-12-14 21:27 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-15 4:49 ` Al Boldi
2005-12-15 5:24 ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-15 8:31 ` Al Boldi
2005-12-15 8:53 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-15 9:24 ` Nick Piggin
[not found] ` <48526.10.10.10.28.1134639327.squirrel@linux1>
2005-12-15 9:35 ` Sean
2005-12-15 11:14 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-15 18:29 ` Al Boldi
2005-12-15 19:01 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2005-12-15 19:06 ` Lee Revell
2005-12-15 19:09 ` Al Viro
2005-12-16 2:09 ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-19 10:57 ` Helge Hafting
2005-12-19 15:19 ` Al Boldi
2005-12-15 5:39 ` Kyle Moffett
2005-12-15 7:11 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-15 9:11 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
[not found] <5jMcG-5mY-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <5jWON-3xQ-29@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <5jZk7-7iD-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <5k6bw-AI-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
2005-12-16 6:57 ` Bodo Eggert
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