Yes you have standing to sue GRSecurity.

Yes you have standing to sue GRSecurity.

[nisus]

It has come to my attention that some entities are claiming that you, 
dear Linux Hackers, (1)need to go through some foundation or get some 
permission from upon high in-order to sue the progenitors of GRSecurity 
for their violation of section 6 of the terms underwhich the linux 
kernel is distributed (version 2 of the GPL). And, furthermore, that 
(2)this foundation has no intention of bringing such a suit.

(1) is false.
(2) may very well be true.

You do have standing to sue GRSecurity for their blatant continuing 
copyright violation if GRSecurity has made a derivative work of your 
code contribution to the Linux Kernel as-long as (a)you have not 
assigned your copyrights, and (b)you are not a work-for-hire.

How do you know if you are a work for hire or if you have signed away 
your copyrights?
If you are working for a company and as your job duties you are 
programming the linux kernel, there is a good chance that you are a work 
for hire and thus the company owns said copyrights.

How do you know if you signed away your copyrights? Well if you singed a 
document transferring ownership of your copyrights for the code you 
produced at some point.

If you are not working for a company while hacking linux and you haven't 
assigned your copyrights away then YOU OWN YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS.

This means most of you hobby hackers, if GRSecurity has modified your 
code, YES YOU HAVE STANDING TO SUE.

Yes your "betters" are lying to you.
You have individual separate standing to sue.

Yes you SHOULD consult a lawyer of your own.
Yes you SHOULD consider a joint filing with other individual 
rights-holders willing to bring suit against GRSecurity for their 
blatant violation of your terms, and yes you should consider starting 
CLASS ACTION since the number of Linux Kernel Contributors seemingly 
numbers in the multitudes upon multitudes upon multitudes.

And yes, I am an attorney.
But no, I'm not looking for clients. Just correcting some false 
information that has been spreading.

And yes, GRSecurity will try to claim that the linux-kernel is a work of 
Joint ownership (so as to shield themselves via procedural law) and yes 
they will try to claim fair use (probably de minimus), and yes your 
Lawyer will have to respond to these claims. The Joint ownership claim 
will go down quickly but it will have to be responded to. De minimus 
Fair Use depends on how much code is modified and how signifigant the 
modifications are. Don't anyone but your own legal council dissuade you 
from bringing suit: Remember the statute of limitations is only a few 
years, so the clock is ticking on the CURRENT violation.

Also make sure you register your copyright of the version of the 
linux-kernel that GRSecurity is using in its violation prior to bringing 
suit. The registration must be for the specific version. Yes you can 
register after the violation has occurred, however if you have 
registered before the violation then you can also pursue recovery of 
legal fees, pursue statutory damages, etc.


( NOTE: If you would like to read on how your copyright is being 
violated by GRSecurity, Bruce Perens posted a good write-up on his 
web-page )
( 
perens.com/blog/2017/06/28/warning-grsecurity-potential-contributory-infringement-risk-for-customers/ 
   )
( There was also a discussion on the linux section of slashdot, and on 
the debian user mailing list, and on the dng devuan mailing list and on 
the openwall mailing list and the fedora legal mailing list )

MikeeUSA warning (Re: Yes you have standing to sue GRSecurity.)

[Adam Borowski]

Note that this is quite clearly yet another of MikeeUSA's sockpuppets.  And
you guys really don't want to be caught in another of his troll threads.

Yeah, GRsecurity is a problem, but don't let our dear Mikee milk it.


-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ What Would Jesus Do, MUD/MMORPG edition:
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ • multiplay with an admin char to benefit your mortal
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ • abuse item cloning bugs (the five fishes + two breads affair)
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ • use glitches to walk on water

Re: MikeeUSA warning (Re: Yes you have standing to sue GRSecurity.)

[nisus]

First of all, give some proof of your accusation.

Second of all, prove the relevance of such.

Third of all: identity politics is off-topic in a discussion on 
copyright.

Is it not you, thus, who is trolling and attempting to derail the 
conversation?


On 2017-07-29 16:49, Adam Borowski wrote:
> Note that this is quite clearly yet another of MikeeUSA's sockpuppets.  
> And
> you guys really don't want to be caught in another of his troll 
> threads.
> 
> Yeah, GRsecurity is a problem, but don't let our dear Mikee milk it.

Yes you have standing to sue GRSecurity

[nisus]

It has come to my attention that some entities are claiming that you, 
dear Linux Hackers, (1)need to go through some foundation or get some 
permission from upon high in-order to sue the progenitors of GRSecurity 
for their violation of section 6 of the terms underwhich the linux 
kernel is distributed (version 2 of the GPL). And, furthermore, that 
(2)this foundation has no intention of bringing such a suit.

(1) is false.
(2) may very well be true.

You do have standing to sue GRSecurity for their blatant continuing 
copyright violation if GRSecurity has made a derivative work of your 
code contribution to the Linux Kernel as-long as (a)you have not 
assigned your copyrights, and (b)you are not a work-for-hire.

How do you know if you are a work for hire or if you have signed away 
your copyrights?
If you are working for a company and as your job duties you are 
programming the linux kernel, there is a good chance that you are a work 
for hire and thus the company owns said copyrights.

How do you know if you signed away your copyrights? Well if you singed a 
document transferring ownership of your copyrights for the code you 
produced at some point.

If you are not working for a company while hacking linux and you haven't 
assigned your copyrights away then YOU OWN YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS.

This means most of you hobby hackers, if GRSecurity has modified your 
code, YES YOU HAVE STANDING TO SUE.

Yes your "betters" are lying to you.
You have individual separate standing to sue.

Yes you SHOULD consult a lawyer of your own.
Yes you SHOULD consider a joint filing with other individual 
rights-holders willing to bring suit against GRSecurity for their 
blatant violation of your terms, and yes you should consider starting 
CLASS ACTION since the number of Linux Kernel Contributors seemingly 
numbers in the multitudes upon multitudes upon multitudes.

And yes, I am an attorney.
But no, I'm not looking for clients. Just correcting some false 
information that has been spreading.

And yes, GRSecurity will try to claim that the linux-kernel is a work of 
Joint ownership (so as to shield themselves via procedural law) and yes 
they will try to claim fair use (probably de minimus), and yes your 
Lawyer will have to respond to these claims. The Joint ownership claim 
will go down quickly but it will have to be responded to. De minimus 
Fair Use depends on how much code is modified and how signifigant the 
modifications are. Don't let anyone but your own legal council dissuade 
you from bringing suit: Remember the statute of limitations is only a 
few years, so the clock is ticking on the CURRENT violation.

Also make sure you register your copyright of the version of the 
linux-kernel that GRSecurity is using in its violation prior to bringing 
suit. The registration must be for the specific version. Yes you can 
register after the violation has occurred, however if you have 
registered before the violation then you can also pursue recovery of 
legal fees, pursue statutory damages, etc.


( NOTE: If you would like to read on how your copyright is being 
violated by GRSecurity, Bruce Perens posted a good write-up on his 
web-page )
( 
perens.com/blog/2017/06/28/warning-grsecurity-potential-contributory-infringement-risk-for-customers/ 
   )
( There was also a discussion on the linux section of slashdot, and on 
the debian user mailing list, and on the dng devuan mailing list and on 
the openwall mailing list and the fedora legal mailing list )

Re: Yes you have standing to sue GRSecurity

[Paul G. Allen]

I have not contributed to the kernel for some time (I have been
working on some stuff, but nothing that's been contributed), so I
don't know if any of my code would be infringed (or if it's even in
the latest kernels).

My work was on AGP and VIA drivers, so I am wondering if GRSecurity's
patches affect that code?

Thanks,

PGA

On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 7:06 AM,  <nisus@redchan.it> wrote:
> It has come to my attention that some entities are claiming that you, dear
> Linux Hackers, (1)need to go through some foundation or get some permission
> from upon high in-order to sue the progenitors of GRSecurity for their
> violation of section 6 of the terms underwhich the linux kernel is
> distributed (version 2 of the GPL). And, furthermore, that (2)this
> foundation has no intention of bringing such a suit.
>
> (1) is false.
> (2) may very well be true.
>
> You do have standing to sue GRSecurity for their blatant continuing
> copyright violation if GRSecurity has made a derivative work of your code
> contribution to the Linux Kernel as-long as (a)you have not assigned your
> copyrights, and (b)you are not a work-for-hire.
>
> How do you know if you are a work for hire or if you have signed away your
> copyrights?
> If you are working for a company and as your job duties you are programming
> the linux kernel, there is a good chance that you are a work for hire and
> thus the company owns said copyrights.
>
> How do you know if you signed away your copyrights? Well if you singed a
> document transferring ownership of your copyrights for the code you produced
> at some point.
>
> If you are not working for a company while hacking linux and you haven't
> assigned your copyrights away then YOU OWN YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS.
>
> This means most of you hobby hackers, if GRSecurity has modified your code,
> YES YOU HAVE STANDING TO SUE.
>
> Yes your "betters" are lying to you.
> You have individual separate standing to sue.
>
> Yes you SHOULD consult a lawyer of your own.
> Yes you SHOULD consider a joint filing with other individual rights-holders
> willing to bring suit against GRSecurity for their blatant violation of your
> terms, and yes you should consider starting CLASS ACTION since the number of
> Linux Kernel Contributors seemingly numbers in the multitudes upon
> multitudes upon multitudes.
>
> And yes, I am an attorney.
> But no, I'm not looking for clients. Just correcting some false information
> that has been spreading.
>
> And yes, GRSecurity will try to claim that the linux-kernel is a work of
> Joint ownership (so as to shield themselves via procedural law) and yes they
> will try to claim fair use (probably de minimus), and yes your Lawyer will
> have to respond to these claims. The Joint ownership claim will go down
> quickly but it will have to be responded to. De minimus Fair Use depends on
> how much code is modified and how signifigant the modifications are. Don't
> let anyone but your own legal council dissuade you from bringing suit:
> Remember the statute of limitations is only a few years, so the clock is
> ticking on the CURRENT violation.
>
> Also make sure you register your copyright of the version of the
> linux-kernel that GRSecurity is using in its violation prior to bringing
> suit. The registration must be for the specific version. Yes you can
> register after the violation has occurred, however if you have registered
> before the violation then you can also pursue recovery of legal fees, pursue
> statutory damages, etc.
>
>
> ( NOTE: If you would like to read on how your copyright is being violated by
> GRSecurity, Bruce Perens posted a good write-up on his web-page )
> (
> perens.com/blog/2017/06/28/warning-grsecurity-potential-contributory-infringement-risk-for-customers/
> )
> ( There was also a discussion on the linux section of slashdot, and on the
> debian user mailing list, and on the dng devuan mailing list and on the
> openwall mailing list and the fedora legal mailing list )
>



-- 
Paul G. Allen, BSIT/SE
Owner, Sr. Engineer
Random Logic Consulting
www.randomlogic.com

Re: Yes you have standing to sue GRSecurity

[Theodore Ts'o]

On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 09:32:36AM -0600, Paul G. Allen wrote:
> I have not contributed to the kernel for some time (I have been
> working on some stuff, but nothing that's been contributed), so I
> don't know if any of my code would be infringed (or if it's even in
> the latest kernels).
> 
> My work was on AGP and VIA drivers, so I am wondering if GRSecurity's
> patches affect that code?

It's not even clear that there is infringement.  The GPL merely
requires that people who have been distributed copies of GPL'ed code
must not be restricted from further redistribution of the code.  It
does not require that that someone who is distributing it must
available on a public FTP/HTTP server.

Brad Spengler has asserted that he has not forbidden any of his
customers from further redistribution of the code.  Other than his
claim of being in compliance with the GPL, I do not personally have
any information either suggesting that he is or is not violating the
terms of the GNU Public License.

Personally, I think I don't think it makes any difference one way or
another.  GRSecurity has made themselves irrelevant from the
perspective of upstream development.  If someone wants to find some
embedded device which is using GRSecurity, and wishes to purchase said
device, and then demand access to source code under the terms of the
GPL, and then post those sources on some web site, that is all within
their right to do.  For the most part, though, it's rarely useful to
get dead code posted on a web site.  This is the same reason that
people who do drive-by open sourcing of code largely don't make much
difference.  You can make a code drop of (for example) Digital's old
Tru64 advfs and make it available under an open source license.  But
even though it was a very good file system for its time, unless it
comes with a community of developers, the code drop will very likely
just sit there.

So personally, I don't think it's a particularly good use of *my* time
to investigate whether or not folks who are responsible for grsecurity
are violating the terms of the GPL, and to get involved in a lawsuit.
It may be that there is no "there" there, in which case it will be a
waste of my time.  And even if we can find proof that GRsecurity has
forbidden its customers from redistribution code derived from the
Linux kernel, in violation of the GPL, it will be messy, it will
enrich a bunch of attorneys --- and at the end of the day we will get
a dump of code that probably won't make any real difference to the
upstream development of the Linux kernel, since it will probably be
based on some ancient 3.18 kernel or some such.

Cheers,

						- Ted

Re: Yes you have standing to sue GRSecurity

[Paul G. Allen]

> It's not even clear that there is infringement.  The GPL merely
> requires that people who have been distributed copies of GPL'ed code
> must not be restricted from further redistribution of the code.  It
> does not require that that someone who is distributing it must
> available on a public FTP/HTTP server.
>
> Brad Spengler has asserted that he has not forbidden any of his
> customers from further redistribution of the code.  Other than his
> claim of being in compliance with the GPL, I do not personally have
> any information either suggesting that he is or is not violating the
> terms of the GNU Public License.
>
> Personally, I think I don't think it makes any difference one way or
> another.  GRSecurity has made themselves irrelevant from the
> perspective of upstream development.  If someone wants to find some
> embedded device which is using GRSecurity, and wishes to purchase said
> device, and then demand access to source code under the terms of the
> GPL, and then post those sources on some web site, that is all within
> their right to do.  For the most part, though, it's rarely useful to
> get dead code posted on a web site.  This is the same reason that
> people who do drive-by open sourcing of code largely don't make much
> difference.  You can make a code drop of (for example) Digital's old
> Tru64 advfs and make it available under an open source license.  But
> even though it was a very good file system for its time, unless it
> comes with a community of developers, the code drop will very likely
> just sit there.
>
> So personally, I don't think it's a particularly good use of *my* time
> to investigate whether or not folks who are responsible for grsecurity
> are violating the terms of the GPL, and to get involved in a lawsuit.
> It may be that there is no "there" there, in which case it will be a
> waste of my time.  And even if we can find proof that GRsecurity has
> forbidden its customers from redistribution code derived from the
> Linux kernel, in violation of the GPL, it will be messy, it will
> enrich a bunch of attorneys --- and at the end of the day we will get
> a dump of code that probably won't make any real difference to the
> upstream development of the Linux kernel, since it will probably be
> based on some ancient 3.18 kernel or some such.
>

If there is something to this (that GRSecurity is somehow in violation
of the GPL), then it would probably be a very good idea for someone
(the community, Red Hat, etc.) to protect the kernel. From my
understanding, at least in America, protections under any license or
contract (especially dealing with copyright and trademark
infringement) are only enforceable as long as the party with the
rights enforce the license/contract/agreement.

There is also something in law called "setting a precedent" and if the
violating of the Linux license agreement is left unchecked, then quite
possibly a precedent could be set to allow an entire upstream kernel
to be co-opted. I've know a LOT of engineers over the past 30+ years
that ignore the legal ramifications of what they do (because most
engineers want to engineer, not deal with legal garbage), and end up
losing in the end (or causing lawsuits for their company).

In other words, if things like this are left unchecked, then
eventually Linux possibly becomes co-opted by a company that violates
the license and everyone else is left having to pay them.

I have had code stolen in the past (an entire game in fact). That was
at a time when I was not financially able to do anything about it, and
even if I was, I was too young tot know any better and would not have
pursued any action. I now know better and have seen - since then -
people lose and be diminished because some entity took the fruits of
their long, hard work.

In summary, I think dismissing such a thing out-of-hand is a mistake.
Looking into it and making sure of the issue helps everyone, and
continues to keep the kernel free (who here remembers SCO?).

Thanks,

PGA
-- 
Paul G. Allen, BSIT/SE
Owner, Sr. Engineer
Random Logic Consulting
www.randomlogic.com

Re: Yes you have standing to sue GRSecurity

[David Lang]

On Sat, 29 Jul 2017, Paul G. Allen wrote:

>> It's not even clear that there is infringement.  The GPL merely
>> requires that people who have been distributed copies of GPL'ed code
>> must not be restricted from further redistribution of the code.  It
>> does not require that that someone who is distributing it must
>> available on a public FTP/HTTP server.

what I have seen reported is that they are adding additional restrictions, that 
if any of their customers redistribute the source, their contract with 
grsecurity is terminated.

> If there is something to this (that GRSecurity is somehow in violation
> of the GPL), then it would probably be a very good idea for someone
> (the community, Red Hat, etc.) to protect the kernel. From my
> understanding, at least in America, protections under any license or
> contract (especially dealing with copyright and trademark
> infringement) are only enforceable as long as the party with the
> rights enforce the license/contract/agreement.

You are thinking of Trademarks, they must be defended or you loose them. 
Contracts and Licenses do not need to be defended at every chance or risk 
loosing them.

> There is also something in law called "setting a precedent" and if the
> violating of the Linux license agreement is left unchecked, then quite
> possibly a precedent could be set to allow an entire upstream kernel
> to be co-opted.

This is a potential problem.

David Lang

Re: Yes you have standing to sue GRSecurity

[David C. Rankin]

On 07/30/2017 12:55 AM, David Lang wrote:
> You are thinking of Trademarks, they must be defended or you loose them.
> Contracts and Licenses do not need to be defended at every chance or risk
> loosing them.

No, not always, it can apply in plain contract as well. The defenses that
could be later raised by grsecurity if this issue goes unaddressed is are (1)
latches; and (2) waiver. It is a slippery slope. While, without commenting on
the dubious nature of the current use of the defenses (as catch-all,
kitchen-sink affirmative-defenses), they can be expected to be raised if
rights under GPL to insure no further restrictions are placed on subsequent
use of the kernel-code are not enforced.

I hope there is a centralized forum that will be established for this issue
(there may be and I'm just not smart enough to have found it yet). Certainly,
if for nothing else, so the advantages and disadvantages of both action, and
inaction, can be peer-reviewed on both the legal and technical side.

-- 
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.

Re: Yes you have standing to sue GRSecurity

[Pavel Machek]

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On Sat 2017-07-29 22:55:22, David Lang wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jul 2017, Paul G. Allen wrote:
> 
> >>It's not even clear that there is infringement.  The GPL merely
> >>requires that people who have been distributed copies of GPL'ed code
> >>must not be restricted from further redistribution of the code.  It
> >>does not require that that someone who is distributing it must
> >>available on a public FTP/HTTP server.
> 
> what I have seen reported is that they are adding additional restrictions,
> that if any of their customers redistribute the source, their contract with
> grsecurity is terminated.

Question is if this is legal thing to do.

Because if it is, there could be other "more interesting" abuses of
the GPL (*), and we may want GPLv4 to fix it.

									Pavel

(*) Such as: you give us million dollars. You are free to distribute
the sources under the GPL, but if you do, our contract ends and we
will not be returning the million.

-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

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Re: Yes you have standing to sue GRSecurity

[Pavel Machek]

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Hi!

On Sat 2017-07-29 17:20:52, Paul G. Allen wrote:
> > It's not even clear that there is infringement.  The GPL merely
> > requires that people who have been distributed copies of GPL'ed code
> > must not be restricted from further redistribution of the code.  It
> > does not require that that someone who is distributing it must
> > available on a public FTP/HTTP server.
> >
> > Brad Spengler has asserted that he has not forbidden any of his
> > customers from further redistribution of the code.  Other than his
> > claim of being in compliance with the GPL, I do not personally have
> > any information either suggesting that he is or is not violating the
> > terms of the GNU Public License.
> >
> > Personally, I think I don't think it makes any difference one way or
> > another.  GRSecurity has made themselves irrelevant from the
> > perspective of upstream development.  If someone wants to find some
> > embedded device which is using GRSecurity, and wishes to purchase said
> > device, and then demand access to source code under the terms of the
> > GPL, and then post those sources on some web site, that is all within
> > their right to do.  For the most part, though, it's rarely useful to
> > get dead code posted on a web site.  This is the same reason that
> > people who do drive-by open sourcing of code largely don't make much
> > difference.  You can make a code drop of (for example) Digital's old
> > Tru64 advfs and make it available under an open source license.  But
> > even though it was a very good file system for its time, unless it
> > comes with a community of developers, the code drop will very likely
> > just sit there.
> >
> > So personally, I don't think it's a particularly good use of *my* time
> > to investigate whether or not folks who are responsible for grsecurity
> > are violating the terms of the GPL, and to get involved in a lawsuit.
> > It may be that there is no "there" there, in which case it will be a
> > waste of my time.  And even if we can find proof that GRsecurity has
> > forbidden its customers from redistribution code derived from the
> > Linux kernel, in violation of the GPL, it will be messy, it will
> > enrich a bunch of attorneys --- and at the end of the day we will get
> > a dump of code that probably won't make any real difference to the
> > upstream development of the Linux kernel, since it will probably be
> > based on some ancient 3.18 kernel or some such.
> >
> 
> If there is something to this (that GRSecurity is somehow in violation
> of the GPL), then it would probably be a very good idea for someone
> (the community, Red Hat, etc.) to protect the kernel. From my
> understanding, at least in America, protections under any license or

You probably still have code in the kernel. So you probably can sue
them. I'll have my fingers crossed for you :-), but otherwise don't
expect much help.

								Pavel

-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

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