RE: [OT] Re: CML2 1.3.1, aka "I stick my neck out a mile..."

RE: [OT] Re: CML2 1.3.1, aka "I stick my neck out a mile..."

[Leif Sawyer]

Jeff Garzik writes:
> Does anybody have a procmail recipe that filters out e-mail to
> linux-kernel that contain ridiculously long .sigs?
> -- 
> Jeff Garzik      | Game called on account of naked chick


Oh for fsck's sake.  You've now wasted 1000x more bandwidth bitching
about sig length than the the actual sig used up.

Get a life.  Ignore that which displeases you.  Ignorance is bliss.
You are no longer a republican.  Eat your vegatables.

Just stop whining about ESR's sigs already.


And now back to your regularly scheduled kernel hacking.


(woo! sluggy freelance. poing!)

#insert <longsig.h>
--
Leif Sawyer   --  Pi@4398680
leif@gci.net  ||  lsawyer@gci.com  ||  internic: LS2540 
(907) 868 - 0116   ||  ICQ - 3749190  || http://home.gci.net/~leif
Network Engineer -- General Communication Inc.
PGP Fingerprint: 77 C8 34 B8 FD BC C6 32  5F FE 93 4B AE 6C F7 4E
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GAT d+ s: a C+++(++)$ US++++$ UL++++$ P+++ L++(+++) E---
W+++ N+ o+ K w O- M- V PS+ PE Y+ PGP(+) t+@ 5- X R- tv b++(+++)
DI++++ D++ G+ e(+)* h-- r++ y+ PP++++ HH++++ A19 NT{--}
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Decode it! http://www.ebb.org/ungeek/

Re: [OT] Re: CML2 1.3.1, aka "I stick my neck out a mile..."

[Jeff Garzik]

Leif Sawyer wrote:
> Oh for fsck's sake.  You've now wasted 1000x more bandwidth bitching
> about sig length than the the actual sig used up.

Nope, between esr's sigs and your geek code block+sig+stuff, we are
still playing catch-up...  More posting to do!

-- 
Jeff Garzik      | Game called on account of naked chick
Building 1024    |
MandrakeSoft     |

Re: CML2 1.3.1, aka "I stick my neck out a mile..."

[Eric S. Raymond]

Alexander Viro <viro@math.psu.edu>:
> >From AFW FAQ:
> 
> Q11. What is the McQuary limit?
> A11. "There once was a man from Nantucket,
>      who lost his .sig in a bucket.
>      Five lines was too long,
>      columns 80 just strong,
>      so he didn't know where to tuck it."
> A11. The limit on signature size:  "4x80".

I just added the following to the Jargon File masters:

@hd{McQuary limit} @p{} 4 lines of at most 80 characters each,
   sometimes still cited on Usenet as the maximum acceptable size of a
   @es{sig block}.  Before the great bandwidth explosion of the early
   1990s, long sigs actually cost people running Usenet servers
   significant amounts of money.  Nowadays social pressure against
   long sigs is intended to avoid waste of human attention rather
   than machine bandwidth.  Accordingly, the McQuary limit should 
   be considered a rule of thumb rather than a hard limit; it's
   best to avoid sigs that are large, repetitive, and distracting.
   See also @es{warlording}.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

What, then is law [government]? It is the collective organization of
the individual right to lawful defense."
	-- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law"

Re: CML2 1.3.1, aka "I stick my neck out a mile..."

[nick]

I think ppl are recommending you BZ2 all your sigs......
	Nick

On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote:

> Alexander Viro <viro@math.psu.edu>:
> > >From AFW FAQ:
> > 
> > Q11. What is the McQuary limit?
> > A11. "There once was a man from Nantucket,
> >      who lost his .sig in a bucket.
> >      Five lines was too long,
> >      columns 80 just strong,
> >      so he didn't know where to tuck it."
> > A11. The limit on signature size:  "4x80".
> 
> I just added the following to the Jargon File masters:
> 
> @hd{McQuary limit} @p{} 4 lines of at most 80 characters each,
>    sometimes still cited on Usenet as the maximum acceptable size of a
>    @es{sig block}.  Before the great bandwidth explosion of the early
>    1990s, long sigs actually cost people running Usenet servers
>    significant amounts of money.  Nowadays social pressure against
>    long sigs is intended to avoid waste of human attention rather
>    than machine bandwidth.  Accordingly, the McQuary limit should 
>    be considered a rule of thumb rather than a hard limit; it's
>    best to avoid sigs that are large, repetitive, and distracting.
>    See also @es{warlording}.
> -- 
> 		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
> 
> What, then is law [government]? It is the collective organization of
> the individual right to lawful defense."
> 	-- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law"
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
> 

Re: [kbuild-devel] Re: CML2 1.3.1, aka "I stick my neck out a mile..."

[Eric S. Raymond]

nick@snowman.net <nick@snowman.net>:
> I think ppl are recommending you BZ2 all your sigs......

Yes, I got that.  Except for the people saying they like them as-is.

In the absence of a clear consensus on the matter, I'm going to do
as I please.  Especially since I have a strong suspicion that neither
camp would change their evaluation of my sigs if I did compress them.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

"The bearing of arms is the essential medium through which the
individual asserts both his social power and his participation in
politics as a responsible moral being..."
        -- J.G.A. Pocock, describing the beliefs of the founders of the U.S.

[OT] Re: CML2 1.3.1, aka "I stick my neck out a mile..."

[Jeff Garzik]

Does anybody have a procmail recipe that filters out e-mail to
linux-kernel that contain ridiculously long .sigs?
-- 
Jeff Garzik      | Game called on account of naked chick
Building 1024    |
MandrakeSoft     |

Re: [OT] Re: CML2 1.3.1, aka "I stick my neck out a mile..."

[Rik van Riel]

On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Jeff Garzik wrote:

> Does anybody have a procmail recipe that filters out e-mail to
> linux-kernel that contain ridiculously long .sigs?
> --
> Jeff Garzik      | Game called on account of naked chick 
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Why that? I see you too support the right to bare arms ;)

Rik
--
Virtual memory is like a game you can't win;
However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose...

http://www.surriel.com/		http://distro.conectiva.com/

Send all your spam to aardvark@nl.linux.org (spam digging piggy)

Re: CML2 1.3.1, aka "I stick my neck out a mile..."

[Alexander Viro]

On Sun, 29 Apr 2001, David Emory Watson wrote:

> Al,
> 
> I really don't know why you must complain about Eric's sig.  I

Because violating the common standards is a bad thing?  You know, like
4-lines limit on sig size...  And no, I don't care how many AOL and
WebTV lusers do the same thing. 

Re: CML2 1.3.1, aka "I stick my neck out a mile..."

[David Emory Watson]

Oh.  Well in hindsight, I guess your are right.  After all I wouldn't
want to be a luser, much less associated with AOL.  Gosh  I never
realized.  Maybe I just didn't read the right standards manual when I
started using the internet.  Where did you learn all of this?  No,
nevermind I don't care.  I'm sorry for contributing to this silly flame
war.

I think my points been made.  Sorry Al, but this is a bit too silly....

On 30 Apr 2001 01:50:49 -0400, Alexander Viro wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2001, David Emory Watson wrote:
> 
> > Al,
> > 
> > I really don't know why you must complain about Eric's sig.  I
> 
> Because violating the common standards is a bad thing?  You know, like
> 4-lines limit on sig size...  And no, I don't care how many AOL and
> WebTV lusers do the same thing. 
> 

Re: CML2 1.3.1, aka "I stick my neck out a mile..."

[Eric S. Raymond]

David Emory Watson <demoryw@pacbell.net>:
> Oh.  Well in hindsight, I guess your are right.  After all I wouldn't
> want to be a luser, much less associated with AOL.  Gosh  I never
> realized.  Maybe I just didn't read the right standards manual when I
> started using the internet.  Where did you learn all of this?  No,
> nevermind I don't care.  I'm sorry for contributing to this silly flame
> war.

Time for me to put on my hacker-folklorist hat...

Actually, Al is sort of half-right here.  There used to be a 4-lines-or-less
convention on USENET, back in the days when bandwidth was expensive.  I
adhered to it then, because it mattered.

Nowadays it doesn't -- at least not at that level.  Huge sigs with
embedded ASCII graphics and the like are still best avoided, but merely
because they're tasteless and distracting.

I don't think I've heard anyone invoke the 4-line rule since about
1992, though.  I didn't start generating short random quotes into my sig
until about 1996, well after the "standard" was effectively dead.

Despite the demise of the 4-line standard, I have a pretty definite
impression that the average size of sigs actually dropped in the 1990s.
The main thing that formerly inflated a lot of them was the need to
list multiple bang-path addresses and other forms of contact info.
Reliable @-addressing pretty much eliminated that pressure.

Even back in its day this "rule" was frequently abused as a socially
acceptable way to attack people whose opinions or style one disliked.
This is doubtless one reason it failed to survive the bandwidth boom.

Hmmm.  Maybe this should be a Jargon File entry...
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

The politician attempts to remedy the evil by increasing the very thing
that caused the evil in the first place: legal plunder.
	-- Frederick Bastiat

[OT] Re: CML2 1.3.1, aka "I stick my neck out a mile..."

[Jeff Garzik]

"Eric S. Raymond" wrote:
> Actually, Al is sort of half-right here.  There used to be a 4-lines-or-less
> convention on USENET, back in the days when bandwidth was expensive.  I
> adhered to it then, because it mattered.
> 
> Nowadays it doesn't -- at least not at that level.  Huge sigs with
> embedded ASCII graphics and the like are still best avoided, but merely
> because they're tasteless and distracting.
> 
> I don't think I've heard anyone invoke the 4-line rule since about
> 1992, though.  I didn't start generating short random quotes into my sig
> until about 1996, well after the "standard" was effectively dead.

The 4-line rule is still being invoked all the time, and written into
college netiquette guides for students, things like that.  The standard
has never been "effectively dead" except in the sense that it always has
been:  clueless AOLers ignore it, clueful netiquette followers follow
it.

Read item #15:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~js/gnksa/gnksa.txt


> Despite the demise of the 4-line standard, I have a pretty definite
> impression that the average size of sigs actually dropped in the 1990s.
> The main thing that formerly inflated a lot of them was the need to
> list multiple bang-path addresses and other forms of contact info.
> Reliable @-addressing pretty much eliminated that pressure.
> 
> Even back in its day this "rule" was frequently abused as a socially
> acceptable way to attack people whose opinions or style one disliked.

frequently abused, yes.  socially acceptable?  doubtful.

-- 
Jeff Garzik      | Game called on account of naked chick
Building 1024    |
MandrakeSoft     |