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From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
To: "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@sisk.pl>
Cc: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>, David Miller <davem@davemloft.net>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	Jiri Slaby <jirislaby@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:40:39 -0700 (PDT)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0804301831330.5994@woody.linux-foundation.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0804301811051.5994@woody.linux-foundation.org>



On Wed, 30 Apr 2008, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
> You (and Andrew) have tried to argue that slowing things down results in 
> better quality,

Sorry, not Andrew. DavidN.

Andrew argued the other way (quality->slower), which I also happen to not 
necessarily believe in, but that's a separate argument.

Nobody should ever argue against raising quality.

The question could be about "at what cost"? (although I think that's not 
necessarily a good argument, since I personally suspect that good quality 
code comes from _lowering_ costs, not raising them).

But what's really relevant is "how?"

Now, we do know that open-source code tends to be higher quality (along a 
number of metrics) than closed source code, and my argument is that it's 
not because of bike-shedding (aka code review), but simply because the 
code is out there and available and visible.

And as a result of that, my personal belief is that the best way to raise 
quality of code is to distribute it. Yes, as patches for discussion, but 
even more so as a part of a cohesive whole - as _merged_ patches!

The thing is, the quality of individual patches isn't what matters! What 
matters is the quality of the end result. And people are going to be a lot 
more involved in looking at, testing, and working with code that is 
merged, rather than code that isn't.

So _my_ answer to the "how do we raise quality" is actually the exact 
reverse of what you guys seem to be arguing.

IOW, I argue that the high speed of merging very much is a big part of 
what gives us quality in the end. It may result in bugs along the way, but 
it also results in fixes, and lots of people looking at the result (and 
looking at it in *context*, not just as a patch flying around).

And yes, maybe that sounds counter-intuitive. But hey, people thought open 
source was counter-intuitive. I spent years explaining why it should work 
at all!

			Linus

  parent reply	other threads:[~2008-05-01  1:41 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 229+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2008-04-30  2:03 David Miller
2008-04-30  4:03 ` David Newall
2008-04-30  4:18   ` David Miller
2008-04-30 13:04     ` David Newall
2008-04-30 13:18       ` Michael Kerrisk
2008-04-30 14:51       ` Linus Torvalds
2008-04-30 18:21         ` David Newall
2008-04-30 18:27           ` Linus Torvalds
2008-04-30 18:55             ` David Newall
2008-04-30 19:08               ` Linus Torvalds
2008-04-30 19:16                 ` David Newall
2008-04-30 19:25                   ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-01  4:31                     ` David Newall
2008-05-01  4:37                       ` David Miller
2008-05-01 13:49                       ` Lennart Sorensen
2008-05-01 15:28                       ` Kasper Sandberg
2008-05-01 17:49                         ` Russ Dill
2008-05-02  1:47                           ` Kasper Sandberg
2008-05-02  2:54                             ` Russ Dill
2008-05-02  7:01                               ` Kasper Sandberg
2008-05-02 17:34                               ` Lee Mathers (TCAFS)
2008-05-02 18:21                                 ` Andi Kleen
2008-05-02 21:34                                   ` Kasper Sandberg
2008-04-30 19:06             ` Chris Friesen
2008-04-30 19:13               ` Linus Torvalds
2008-04-30 19:22                 ` David Newall
2008-04-30 19:42                   ` Linus Torvalds
2008-04-30  7:11   ` Tarkan Erimer
2008-04-30 13:28     ` David Newall
2008-04-30 13:38       ` Mike Galbraith
2008-04-30 14:41       ` mws
2008-04-30 14:55   ` Russ Dill
2008-04-30 14:48 ` Peter Teoh
2008-04-30 19:36 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-30 20:00   ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-30 20:20     ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-30 20:05   ` Linus Torvalds
2008-04-30 20:14     ` Linus Torvalds
2008-04-30 20:56       ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-30 23:34       ` Greg KH
2008-04-30 20:45     ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-30 21:37       ` Linus Torvalds
2008-04-30 22:23         ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-30 22:31           ` Linus Torvalds
2008-04-30 22:41             ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-30 23:23               ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-30 23:41                 ` david
2008-04-30 23:51                   ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-05-01  0:57               ` Adrian Bunk
2008-05-01  1:25                 ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-01  2:13                   ` Adrian Bunk
2008-05-01  2:30                     ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-01 18:54                       ` Adrian Bunk
2008-05-14 14:55                       ` Pavel Machek
2008-05-01  1:35                 ` Theodore Tso
2008-05-01 12:31               ` Tarkan Erimer
2008-05-01 15:34                 ` Stefan Richter
2008-05-02 14:05                   ` Tarkan Erimer
2008-04-30 22:46             ` Willy Tarreau
2008-04-30 22:52               ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-30 23:21                 ` Willy Tarreau
2008-04-30 23:38                   ` Chris Shoemaker
2008-04-30 23:20               ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-01  0:42                 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-05-01  1:19                   ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-01  1:31                     ` Andrew Morton
2008-05-01  1:43                       ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-01 10:59                         ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-05-01 15:26                           ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-01 17:09                             ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-05-01 17:41                               ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-01 18:11                                 ` Al Viro
2008-05-01 18:23                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-01 18:30                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-01 18:58                                     ` Willy Tarreau
2008-05-01 19:37                                     ` Al Viro
2008-05-01 19:58                                       ` Andrew Morton
2008-05-01 20:07                                       ` Joel Becker
2008-05-01 18:50                                 ` Willy Tarreau
2008-05-01 19:07                                   ` david
2008-05-01 19:28                                     ` Willy Tarreau
2008-05-01 19:46                                       ` david
2008-05-01 19:53                                         ` Willy Tarreau
2008-05-01 22:17                                   ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-05-01 19:39                                 ` Friedrich Göpel
2008-05-01 21:59                                 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-05-02 12:17                                   ` Stefan Richter
2008-05-01 18:35                             ` Chris Frey
2008-05-02 13:22                               ` Enrico Weigelt
2008-05-01  1:40                     ` Linus Torvalds [this message]
2008-05-01  1:51                       ` David Miller
2008-05-01  2:01                         ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-01  2:17                           ` David Miller
2008-05-01  2:21                       ` Al Viro
2008-05-01  5:19                         ` david
2008-05-04  3:26                         ` Rene Herman
2008-05-01  2:31                       ` Nigel Cunningham
2008-05-01 18:32                         ` Stephen Clark
2008-05-01  3:53                       ` Frans Pop
2008-05-01 11:38                       ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-30 14:28                         ` Arjan van de Ven
2008-05-01 12:41                           ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-30 15:06                             ` Arjan van de Ven
2008-05-01  5:50                     ` Willy Tarreau
2008-05-01 11:53                       ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-05-01 12:11                         ` Will Newton
2008-05-01 13:16                         ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
2008-05-01 13:53                           ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-05-01 14:35                             ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
2008-05-01 15:29                           ` Ray Lee
2008-05-01 19:03                             ` Willy Tarreau
2008-05-01 19:36                         ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2008-05-01  1:30                 ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2008-05-01  5:35                   ` Willy Tarreau
2008-04-30 23:03             ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-30 22:40           ` david
2008-04-30 23:45             ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-30 23:57               ` david
2008-05-01  0:01                 ` Chris Shoemaker
2008-05-01  0:14                   ` david
2008-05-01  0:38                     ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-01  1:39                       ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2008-05-01  0:38               ` Adrian Bunk
2008-05-01  0:56                 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-05-01  1:25                   ` Adrian Bunk
2008-05-01 12:05                     ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-05-01 13:54       ` Stefan Richter
2008-05-01 14:06         ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-30 23:29     ` Paul Mackerras
2008-05-01  1:57       ` Jeff Garzik
2008-05-01  2:52         ` Frans Pop
2008-05-01  3:47       ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-01  4:17         ` Jeff Garzik
2008-05-01  4:46           ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-04 13:47             ` Krzysztof Halasa
2008-05-04 15:05               ` Jacek Luczak
2008-05-01  9:17           ` Alan Cox
2008-04-30 20:15   ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-30 20:31     ` Linus Torvalds
2008-04-30 20:47       ` Dan Noe
2008-04-30 20:59         ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-30 21:30           ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-30 21:37             ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-30 22:08             ` Linus Torvalds
2008-04-30 22:53           ` Mariusz Kozlowski
2008-04-30 23:11             ` Andrew Morton
2008-05-12  9:27               ` Ben Dooks
2008-05-02 10:20             ` Andi Kleen
2008-05-02 15:33               ` Mariusz Kozlowski
2008-04-30 20:54       ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-30 21:21         ` David Miller
2008-04-30 21:47           ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-30 22:02           ` Dmitri Vorobiev
2008-04-30 22:19           ` Ingo Molnar
2008-04-30 22:22             ` David Miller
2008-04-30 22:39               ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-30 22:54                 ` david
2008-04-30 23:12                 ` Willy Tarreau
2008-04-30 23:59                   ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-05-01  0:15                   ` Chris Shoemaker
2008-05-01  5:09                     ` Willy Tarreau
2008-04-30 22:35             ` Ingo Molnar
2008-04-30 22:49               ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-30 22:51               ` David Miller
2008-05-01  1:40                 ` Ingo Molnar
2008-05-01  2:48                 ` Adrian Bunk
2008-05-05  3:04             ` Rusty Russell
2008-05-02 13:37           ` Helge Hafting
2008-04-30 21:42         ` Dmitri Vorobiev
2008-04-30 22:06           ` Jiri Slaby
2008-04-30 22:10           ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-30 22:19             ` Linus Torvalds
2008-04-30 22:28               ` Dmitri Vorobiev
2008-05-01 16:26                 ` Diego Calleja
2008-05-01 16:31                   ` Dmitri Vorobiev
2008-05-02  1:48                   ` Stephen Rothwell
2008-05-01 23:06               ` Kevin Winchester
2008-04-30 23:04             ` Dmitri Vorobiev
2008-05-01 15:19               ` Jim Schutt
2008-05-01  6:15             ` Jan Engelhardt
2008-05-09  9:28         ` Jiri Kosina
2008-05-09 15:00           ` Jeff Garzik
2008-04-30 21:52       ` H. Peter Anvin
2008-05-01  3:24         ` Bob Tracy
2008-05-01 16:39         ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2008-05-01  0:31       ` RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies Adrian Bunk
2008-04-30  7:03         ` Arjan van de Ven
2008-05-01  8:13           ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-30 14:15             ` Arjan van de Ven
2008-05-01 12:42               ` David Woodhouse
2008-04-30 15:02                 ` Arjan van de Ven
2008-05-05 10:03                 ` Benny Halevy
2008-05-04 12:45               ` Rene Herman
2008-05-04 13:00                 ` Pekka Enberg
2008-05-04 13:19                   ` Rene Herman
2008-05-05 13:13                   ` crosscompiler [WAS: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies] Enrico Weigelt
2008-05-01  9:16             ` RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies Frans Pop
2008-05-01 10:30               ` Enrico Weigelt
2008-05-01 13:02                 ` Adrian Bunk
2008-05-01 11:30           ` Adrian Bunk
2008-04-30 14:20             ` Arjan van de Ven
2008-05-01 12:53               ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-05-01 13:21               ` Adrian Bunk
2008-05-01 15:49                 ` Andrew Morton
2008-05-01  1:13                   ` Arjan van de Ven
2008-05-02  9:00                     ` Adrian Bunk
2008-05-01 16:38                   ` Steven Rostedt
2008-05-01 17:18                     ` Andrew Morton
2008-05-01 17:24                   ` Theodore Tso
2008-05-01 19:26                     ` Andrew Morton
2008-05-01 19:39                       ` Steven Rostedt
2008-05-02 10:23                       ` Andi Kleen
2008-05-02  2:08                 ` Paul Mackerras
2008-05-02  3:10                   ` Josh Boyer
2008-05-02  4:09                     ` Paul Mackerras
2008-05-02  8:29                       ` Adrian Bunk
2008-05-02 10:16                         ` Paul Mackerras
2008-05-02 11:58                           ` Adrian Bunk
2008-05-02 14:58                         ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-02 15:44                           ` Carlos R. Mafra
2008-05-02 16:28                             ` Linus Torvalds
2008-05-02 17:15                               ` Carlos R. Mafra
2008-05-02 18:02                                 ` Pallipadi, Venkatesh
2008-05-09 16:32                                   ` Mark Lord
2008-05-09 19:30                                     ` Carlos R. Mafra
2008-05-09 20:39                                       ` Mark Lord
2008-05-01  0:41         ` David Miller
2008-05-01 13:23           ` Adrian Bunk
2008-04-30 20:59 Slow DOWN, please!!! devzero

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