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From: Muchun Song <muchun.song@linux.dev>
To: James Houghton <jthoughton@google.com>
Cc: Will Deacon <will@kernel.org>,
	Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@arm.com>,
	Oscar Salvador <osalvador@suse.de>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	Nikos Nikoleris <nikos.nikoleris@arm.com>,
	Linu Cherian <linu.cherian@arm.com>,
	Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@arm.com>,
	David Hildenbrand <david@kernel.org>,
	Ryan Roberts <ryan.roberts@arm.com>,
	Nanyong Sun <sunnanyong@huawei.com>, Yu Zhao <yuzhao@google.com>,
	Frank van der Linden <fvdl@google.com>,
	David Rientjes <rientjes@google.com>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, linux-mm@kvack.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 03/20] hugetlb_vmemmap: Always flush TLB if needed upon PTE remapping
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2026 17:18:15 +0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <440A9FCF-2B5D-43A9-9B02-C32F5955AC82@linux.dev> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CADrL8HUOJwEgjUzefxSUa=AZHj4JO7koonj2_-WYhcL8QcXPZA@mail.gmail.com>



> On Oct 22, 2026, at 05:59, James Houghton <jthoughton@google.com> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2026 at 2:54 AM Muchun Song <muchun.song@linux.dev> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi James,
>> 
>>> On Oct 3, 2026, at 08:21, James Houghton <jthoughton@google.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> vmemmap_remap_range() can potentially leave the vmemmap in a partially
>>> optimized state. In this case, a TLB flush should be done if the walk
>>> caller asked for it, even if the optimization was not fully applied.
>>> 
>>> A follow-up patch will more completely deal with partially-optimized
>>> folios.
>> 
>> Why are we dealing with partial optimization cases right from
>> the start?
>> 
>> I know that in patch 12, you try cmpxchg 16 times, and if it
>> fails, it leads to the partial optimization state. What I want
>> to ask is, why do we limit the maximum number of attempts? Is
>> it because during testing you found that this kind of failure
>> is very common? If we did not limit the number of attempts,
>> was it because during testing you found that the scheduling
>> latency caused here is very large? Or is this just defensive
>> programming? In my view, scenarios with such intense
>> concurrent access to these struct page structures should be
>> very rare.
> 
> This was done defensively, yes. With 16 retries, I never hit this
> without fault injection. (Perhaps I should try with no retries...)
> 
>> If your testing did not find any problems, my suggestion is
>> not to set an upper limit on the number of cmpxchg attempts.
>> This should be able to simplify the design of the initial
>> version of the code to a certain extent. If we want to
>> determine whether an upper limit should be added in the
>> future, I think we can add timing monitoring in the arm64
>> try_update_vmemmap_pte function and trigger a warning when
>> the measured time exceeds a certain threshold. If someone
>> reports this kind of warning to the community in the future,
>> then I think we can improve it at that time.
>> 
>> What do you think?
> 
> From userspace, you could use kpageflags or page_idle to continuously
> access a single struct page over and over again. I think that's a

page_idle does not support HugeTLB pages, right? We should only consider
/proc/kpageflags; reading this file requires privilege — unless a privileged
user intentionally creates malicious software.

> pretty good reason to have a bound. Also, the AF can be set even
> without an architectural memory access (so a mispredicted branch can
> still set AF, for example); that also makes me want to have a bound.

However, I don't think this scenario would cause a significant amount of
concurrent reads.

> 
> Catalin also said wanted a bound here. See the bottom of this reply at [1].

I see, but I'd still like to explain my reasoning and see what everyone
thinks.

> 
> So I think we should leave it in. The extra complexity is pretty much
> entirely in patch #4[2], and I don't think it's too large of a change.
> I hope you agree. :)

Because I personally feel that having only part of the vmemmap optimized
is a somewhat awkward intermediate state — the all-or-nothing semantics
seems more natural to me. At least until a clear problem actually arises,
I'd prefer not to consider it. At the same time, we can also keep the design
simple.

Thanks,
Muchun

> 
> [1] https://lore.kernel.org/linux-mm/aoRn3Fn1dhTdsk6d@arm.com/
> [2] https://lore.kernel.org/linux-mm/20261003002123.505555-5-jthoughton@google.com/



  reply	other threads:[~2026-10-22  9:18 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 27+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2026-10-03  0:21 [PATCH v2 00/20] Another attempt at HVO support on arm64 James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 01/20] hugetlb: Don't restore vmemmap of non-HVOed folios on bulk restore error James Houghton
2026-10-21  9:32   ` Muchun Song
2026-10-21 21:27     ` James Houghton
2026-10-22  2:17       ` Muchun Song
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 02/20] arm64/pgtable: Clear AF with LDCLR on supported systems James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 03/20] hugetlb_vmemmap: Always flush TLB if needed upon PTE remapping James Houghton
2026-10-21  9:54   ` Muchun Song
2026-10-21 21:59     ` James Houghton
2026-10-22  9:18       ` Muchun Song [this message]
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 04/20] hugetlb_vmemmap: Leave pages partially HVOed upon restore failure James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 05/20] hugetlb_vmemmap: Use try_update_vmemmap_pte to update in-use PTEs James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 06/20] hugetlb_vmemmap: Allow architectures to dynamically disallow HVO James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 07/20] hugetlb_vmemmap: Disable HVO sysctl if arch doesn't support HVO James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 08/20] hugetlb: Fully initialize tail struct pages of non-pre-HVOed bootmem folios James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 09/20] hugetlb_vmemmap: Allow architectures to make HVO enablement boot-time only James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 10/20] hugetlb_vmemmap: Expose whether HVO is enabled to architecture code James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 11/20] arm64: Add bbm_through_af capability James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 12/20] arm64: Implement try_update_vmemmap_pte using the AF trick James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 13/20] arm64: Support hugetlb vmemmap optimization James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 14/20] hugetlb_vmemmap: Add fault injection for in-place vmemmap PTE updates James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 15/20] selftests/mm: Add HugeTLB vmemmap optimization stress test James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 16/20 DO-NOT-MERGE] hugetlb_vmemmap: Use try_populate_vmemmap_pmd for replacing in-use PMDs James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 17/20 DO-NOT-MERGE] arm64: Implement try_populate_vmemmap_pmd using AF trick James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 18/20 DO-NOT-MERGE] arm64: Drop BBML3 requirement for HVO James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 19/20 DO-NOT-MERGE] hugetlb_vmemmap: Add fault injection for in-place vmemmap PMD splits James Houghton
2026-10-03  0:21 ` [PATCH v2 20/20 DO-NOT-MERGE] selftests/mm: Add HVO pmd-split fault injection tests James Houghton

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